England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[rigger]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Good example

Your son may have dual nationality depending on whether he ever took up his German nationality with it being an RAF base? Unsure

But if he did take up his dual nationality, he would be defined as both a German and an Englishman

He isn't entitled to dual nationality, but your statement that if you are born in Germany you are German, is not always true.

[Dreams of 1995]

7 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

 

And it works the other way too, if you are born elsewhere but later become a citizen of a country, you aren’t ‘really’ American or French or Australian?

Nobody has said that. But that isn’t even applicable to the conversation being had

Lets keep this simple Matty - where was Lee Carsley born?

[Dreams of 1995]

1 minute ago, rigger said:

He isn't entitled to dual nationality, but your statement that if you are born in Germany you are German, is not always true.

Ok I take that point

But if he was born in Germany, went to school in Germany, grew up in Germany, worked in Germany - he’s German 

[Mattyblue]

Shifting your argument now Dreams.

You didn’t say someone who ‘holds English nationality’, you said born in England and yes you don’t necessarily identify as an ‘Englishman’ and hold English/British nationality just because you are born in England. You or I don’t decide what makes an Englishman. My best mate was born and brought up here from an Irish family, but he’s never had a British passport, only Irish and he’s an Irishman.

Really very simple and I’m not sure how it’s ended up as an argument.

Edited August 15 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Shifting your argument now Dreams.

You didn’t say someone who ‘holds English nationality’, you said born in England and yes you don’t necessarily identify as an ‘Englishman’ and hold English/British nationality just because you are born in England. You or I don’t decide what makes an Englishman. My best mate was born and brought up here from an Irish family, he’s never had a British passport, only Irish and he’s an Irishman.

Really very simple and I’m not sure how it’s ended up as an argument.

I haven’t shifted anything lol

Your friend qualifies for English nationality whether he wants it or not is another thing. His country of birth is England and given he has spent his life here, could take up the nationality of English if he wanted to 

I take riggers point that it isn’t ALWAYS true and his example was a good one. Some people are born at sea, they aren’t stateless, and so my wording there was poor 

But in Carsleys case - he was born in England, grew up in England, educated in England, worked in England and is bloody English

His country of birth is England. His nationality is English - but he clearly has a way to also claim Irish nationality 

It has ended in an argument because although you keep saying you don’t care about England and are a Rovers fan decided to challenge Chads on whether Carsley is truly English or not 

[Mattyblue]

I was just noting the inconsistency in case a Klopp got the job. I’m not interested in the slightest on what Carsley sees him himself as, English I imagine, but he fancied playing some international football.

But my mate doesn’t want to quality for England as he’s not English, even though he was born here - glad we now agree.

[Dreams of 1995]

23 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

I was just noting the inconsistency in case a Klopp got the job. I’m not interested in the slightest on what Carsley sees him himself as, English I imagine, but he fancied playing some international football.

But my mate doesn’t want to quality for England as he’s not English, even though he was born here - glad we now agree.

😁😁😁 Really isn’t like you to want the last word Matty

We agree that Carsley is English. That’s good enough for me. Let’s just hope your mate doesn’t get the job because then we’d have to have an argument about something you don’t care about again 

[Mattyblue]

I didn’t realise the debate had finished, but yes I’ll have the last word - think we now agree that being born in a country doesn’t necessarily make you an Englishman or a German, but you are quite right if you were born here, brought up here and have an English/British nationality, then that’s quite different. 

Good chat.

Edited August 15 by Mattyblue

[speeeeeeedie]

50 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Shifting your argument now Dreams.

You didn’t say someone who ‘holds English nationality’, you said born in England and yes you don’t necessarily identify as an ‘Englishman’ and hold English/British nationality just because you are born in England. You or I don’t decide what makes an Englishman. My best mate was born and brought up here from an Irish family, but he’s never had a British passport, only Irish and he’s an Irishman.

Really very simple and I’m not sure how it’s ended up as an argument.

I like this topic.

I have a mate over here who was born in England to an Irish family, and like your mate had an Irish passport. He moved to the USA in his late teens and became a US citizen some years later. 

He once told me that growing up he was always known as the Irish kid, even without a hint of an Irish accent, and now that he lives in the USA people call him English even though he's a US citizen. 

[Upside Down]

Dreams has subbed in for chaddy for the none ending circular argument with himself as he constantly changes his position.

#twistandturns

[Dreams of 1995]

7 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

Dreams has subbed in for chaddy for the none ending circular argument with himself as he constantly changes his position.

#twistandturns

😂😂

It can’t be none ending when it ended

And it can’t be circular, because we ended with an agreement 

Behave yourself before I set Eddie on you

[roverandout]

My mother's parents were Irish but she's always considered herself English 

[ABBEY]

RIP Sven..

wonder how things would of worked out if he'd of honoured his handshake.. not speaking ill just wondering

[roverandout]

A true gentleman.  Rip sven

[roverandout]

Horrible thing cancer. Had to go through it twice last year with both my parents 

[Upside Down]

7 hours ago, roverandout said:

A true gentleman.  Rip sven

A true gentleman honours their agreements.

[DeeCee]

Faz was on TalkSport this evening speaking very well about him. 👍

[Mike E]

Two of my fondest England memories were under his management. THAT win over Germany, and THAT Beckham free kick.

I don’t begrudge that he didn’t manage Rovers. Prioritising family is always the right choice.

[RevidgeBlue]

I watched the second half of the Sven documentary yesterday and I found it a very uncomfortable attempt to try and airbrush history and make him look like this nice poor old chap who was dying of cancer.

Back in the day I found him a thoroughly unpleasant character. When he was England manager, nothing was ever his fault, nothing was ever anyone's fault. He turned various tournaments into a farce with the WAG circus and wasted the best group of players we'll probably ever have. Like Allardyce at a later date also ended up losing his job due to greed, getting caught up in a fake sting thinking he was auditioning for a lucrative job.

On a personal level he just shagged his way around with little thought for the consequences be it with a work colleague at the FA or a high profile Celebrity of the time. All the while his ridiculous partner Nancy whatever she was called sat back and tolerated it until he lost £10m due to being scammed by his financial advisor at which point she promptly dumped him commenting in the documentary that that was far worse than all the infidelity which probably summed them both up.

Really really wish he'd never ever got anywhere near the England job. When you look back now, that period was so ludicrous you could hardly make it up. Probably best he never ended up at Ewood either. Did the dirty on Jack and even if he'd made it to Ewood would probably have shafted him and us at a later date.

A journalist participating in the documentary described him as completely amoral which was probably about right.

 

[Upside Down]

31 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I watched the second half of the Sven documentary yesterday and I found it a very uncomfortable attempt to try and airbrush history and make him look like this nice poor old chap who was dying of cancer.

Back in the day I found him a thoroughly unpleasant character. When he was England manager, nothing was ever his fault, nothing was ever anyone's fault. He turned various tournaments into a farce with the WAG circus and wasted the best group of players we'll probably ever have. Like Allardyce at a later date also ended up losing his job due to greed, getting caught up in a fake sting thinking he was auditioning for a lucrative job.

On a personal level he just shagged his way around with little thought for the consequences be it with a work colleague at the FA or a high profile Celebrity of the time. All the while his ridiculous partner Nancy whatever she was called sat back and tolerated it until he lost £10m due to being scammed by his financial advisor at which point she promptly dumped him commenting in the documentary that that was far worse than all the infidelity which probably summed them both up.

Really really wish he'd never ever got anywhere near the England job. When you look back now, that period was so ludicrous you could hardly make it up. Probably best he never ended up at Ewood either. Did the dirty on Jack and even if he'd made it to Ewood would probably have shafted him and us at a later date.

A journalist participating in the documentary described him as completely amoral which was probably about right.

 

I think the players of that generation were massively overrated but apart from that everything else you've said here is absolutely spot on.

It was all about the money with him, nothing else.

[Mattyblue]

But apart from that he was a top bloke, Rev. 😐

[Admiral Nelsen]

8 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I watched the second half of the Sven documentary yesterday and I found it a very uncomfortable attempt to try and airbrush history and make him look like this nice poor old chap who was dying of cancer.

Back in the day I found him a thoroughly unpleasant character. When he was England manager, nothing was ever his fault, nothing was ever anyone's fault. He turned various tournaments into a farce with the WAG circus and wasted the best group of players we'll probably ever have. Like Allardyce at a later date also ended up losing his job due to greed, getting caught up in a fake sting thinking he was auditioning for a lucrative job.

 

It's not really the main point of your post, but to be honest I don't think he should have shouldered too much blame for our exiting tournaments. Both Portugal exits were tough fixtures which wouldn't have even gone to penalties if referees didn't disallow perfectly fair goals. I wouldn't put the Rooney red card or the Seaman flap at Ronaldinho's free kick at his door either. 

 

I understand that I'm fighting a losing battle with this one, but strip back all the noise from Sven's time in charge and his record was actually very decent with just a bit more of a fair wind (dare I say, the sort that Southgate had) would've probably have been much better. 

[Norbert Rassragr]

He almost managed Notts County, which was supposed to be taken over by North Korea, with a con man as the go between. It's a pretty mental story as you can imagine.

[chaddyrovers]

 

 

[Darrenbot]

I see the Irish Guy has dropped Wharton