England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[simongarnerisgod]

2 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

He’s just so negative. We go 1-0 up by playing quite well and then hang on for our lives. Against mighty Serbia.

we could have ripped that game to pieces and gone in 2 or 3 up at half time,i genuinely could`nt believe we backed off and dropped our tempo,serbia are game but limited

[jim mk2]

Southgate appears to be is a good man-manager and understands people but like most English coaches he's poor tactically and he doesn't appear to understand the game that well - certainly not like foreign coaches. There's a reason why the Premier League is dominated by foreign coaches and you imagine a few of them will have been perplexed by Southgate's performance tonight   

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

It isnt a tactic that suits these players to just lump the ball towards Kane, especially against 3 centre backs.

Just because there are examples of teams starting slowly in tournaments (not really relevant to us as we have never won this tournament for all those slow starts) doesnt mean we can dismiss concerns heightened by a poor performance even in victory.

The win is all that matters at the end of the day but im struggling to see why we are the favourites aside from blind patriotic gamblers.

The tactics trying get it forward to Kane was needed cos they push right on us instead of taking a risk not needed. 

Tournament football is about winning not about the style. 

The first 35 minutes wasn't a poor performance plus lets get Serbia some credit here for their performance. They are decent team. Probably will be second in the group. 

on Foden, He has played in all 3 positions behind the striker for City this past season and played more than enough from the 10. 

[davulsukur]

2 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Kane played the old pro tonight, particularly in the second half, winning fouls and free kicks all over the pitch and taking the pressure off.

As for Conor Gallagher international footballer. Really?

You need special players to win tournaments which makes the decision to leave Grealish at home difficult to understand 

I do agree on Kane there. He wasn't great overall but he did use his experience and know how to win us free kicks to take the pressure off when needed. 

I don't watch a lot of Chelsea admittedly but I am yet to see Connor Gallagher have a good game.

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The tactics trying get it forward to Kane was needed cos they push right on us instead of taking a risk not needed. 

Tournament football is about winning not about the style. 

The first 35 minutes wasn't a poor performance plus lets get Serbia some credit here for their performance. They are decent team. Probably will be second in the group. 

on Foden, He has played in all 3 positions behind the striker for City this past season and played more than enough from the 10. 

We have technical players much better than theirs so lumping it long was not the logical approach. Kane struggled because hoofing it was food and drink to their 3 big centre backs. Had we tried to keep the ball on the ground, we would have had much more joy. We have a far better standard of players than Serbia so playing as we did tonight made the game far closer than it needed to be. Direct football played into the hands of a side as big and strong as youll find, we should have played it on the ground and we would have had plenty more joy.

Regarding performance, obviously if we bore teams to overall tournament triumph then great. All football is about results. But the reason people are concerned is not because it is a hard watch. But when we face better opposition, we might struggle unless something changes, ie results could well go against us.

Serbia are an average side, their midfield is made up of a Fulham squad player and an aging player who was in and out at Sevilla, often at centre back. Thankfully they didnt have the quality going forward and our defence held strong but there was no need for it to be as difficult as it became.

Even when Foden plays to the left for City he is so much better than he is for England. Got to look at the manager. Although we had world class players having to try and feed off hopeless long balls for the last hour.

[ABBEY]

Win good

Boring big nose tactics not good

[riverholmes]

Controversial to say here, maybe, but I’m not sure why Southgate’s taken Wharton. I can’t see an important scenario when he comes on.

Yesterday’s game made me think that having a DM, even someone on the wane, like Henderson (though, not sure if there’s a better option), would be helpful off the bench, when the team needs a bit of stability and organisation. Maybe, someone, too, with the authority to remind Kane of his core duties as a striker.

A lot will rest on Rice, as the starter and basically irreplaceable heart, and; also, Gallagher, who will, no doubt, play a part in every game as the reinforcement sub.

Edited June 17 by riverholmes

[Bohinen1983]

On 10/06/2024 at 12:10, Bohinen1983 said:

I can't be the only one that thinks England are not that good..

Keepers: Dodgy

Defence, fairly dodgy too..  Only one natural left back that's coming back from injury..

Rice is very good,  Wharton and Gallagher are also good players, as is Mainoo..

We have an abundance of talent that all plays in the same position: Palmer, Bellingham, Foden all like to play as a 10..

Kane likes to drop into the 10 too.. 

Saka likes to cut inside too- very congested area.

I really think we're massively over-rated, just like previous years. 

I'd like to see Eze and Saka out wide.  Perhaps Wharton in CM too- passes forward.     

Can Foden play a bit deeper with Bellingham in the 10 role? I think that could work well working off Kane...    

So perhap:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Trippier
Gomez
Rice
Foden
Saka
Eze
Bellingham
Kane

To me that's not a great side- France with Zidane,  Brazil, Italy, Germany, Spain- they were world class sides.. This is another over-hyped false dawn.. 

Dodgy defence, negative manager and players that believe their own hype. I think we'll be lucky to get to the QF's let alone win it.

 

Last night was exactly how I imagined we'd play in this tournament..  Uninspiring, disjointed and lacking in creativity. 

Really hope we grow in to this tournament.. 

Think Wharton would have been tremendous in a game like yesterday- moving the ball forwards through the lines.  I really think he could be the key in us going anywhere in this tournament.  

That and perhaps move to two upfront as someone else suggested, play Kane as a 10 and stick a striker up front as 9 otherwise we end up without any forward presence.

3-5-2 

           Walker- Stones - Guehi

Saka- Bellingham - Rice - Wharton - Eze

         Kane
                         Toney/Watkins


I think having someone that can pass forward and maintain composure is vital- Wharton is surely a better option than Trent in CM- I don't dislike Mainoo but he doesn't offer as much as Wharton.

Eze is a great player, skillful and fast- dropping Foden might be a bit harsh in some respects but now we have two players in their natural positons.

Then next prob I think we have is a lack of presence up front. By playing two upfront we can allow Kane to drop into the hole without losing a presence upfront.

The shift in formation to three at the back makes sense to me- we don't have a fit left back and Trippier is past his best.

I still don't think we're very good.  Stand by my QF's. Hopefully the boys go on to gain some confidence and prove me wrong!
                   

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 hours ago, davulsukur said:

I do agree on Kane there. He wasn't great overall but he did use his experience and know how to win us free kicks to take the pressure off when needed. 

I don't watch a lot of Chelsea admittedly but I am yet to see Connor Gallagher have a good game.

Gallagher is just a bit better version of Robbie Savage. As someone once described Savage - “ Like a dog chasing a crisp packet across a car park on a windy day “.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I think the experiment of playing TAA failed, he vanished in the second half. He’s ok on the ball but off it he goes missing. Ditto Foden, he’s had more than enough chances and he’s never stepped up.  The idea of moving him inside to play as a play maker is a joke. He’d just get overpowered. Time to give the Palace winger some game time I think. When the Serbs decided they’d had enough of walking football and got really stuck in to us the second half we’d no answer to their physicality. We are too used to playing Premier League football with Premier League referees who blow up every time somebody falls over. Continental refs are inclined to let a bit of the rough stuff go these days.

Edited June 17 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Wheelton Blue]

8 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I think the experiment of playing TAA failed, he vanished in the second half. He’s ok on the ball but off it he goes missing. Ditto Foden, he’s had more than enough chances and he’s never stepped up.  The idea of moving him inside to play as a play maker is a joke. He’d just get overpowered. Time to give the Palace winger some game time I think. When the Serbs decided they’d had enough of walking football and got really stuck in to us the second half we’d no answer to their physicality. We are too used to playing Premier League football with Premier League referees who blow up every time somebody falls over. Continental refs are included to let a bit of the rough stuff go these days.

I agree with you here.

The walking football we seem to revert to absolutely bores me to tears. Any side that plays more in our faces and with more physical agression, we'll struggle against.

 

[chaddyrovers]

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

We have technical players much better than theirs so lumping it long was not the logical approach. Kane struggled because hoofing it was food and drink to their 3 big centre backs. Had we tried to keep the ball on the ground, we would have had much more joy. We have a far better standard of players than Serbia so playing as we did tonight made the game far closer than it needed to be. Direct football played into the hands of a side as big and strong as youll find, we should have played it on the ground and we would have had plenty more joy.

We were too deep to be playing out and Kane kept the ball and winning good fouls for the team by playing it up to him. 

Yes we do have better standard of players than Serbia but they played well after 35 mins. 

I might have been tempted to go to back 5 last night and played 2 up front of Bellingham and Kane after 60 mins or have brought on Palmer or Gordon for Foden. Bowen did well when he came on and Kane would have scored without Keeper saving

 

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Regarding performance, obviously if we bore teams to overall tournament triumph then great. All football is about results. But the reason people are concerned is not because it is a hard watch. But when we face better opposition, we might struggle unless something changes, ie results could well go against us.

Yes it was poor performance after 35 mins and everyone focus is on the last 55 mins but not the first 35 mins. 

We started slowly every tournament, we did at Euro 2020 and we got to the final that tournament. The best is we know we can improve and Bellingham/Kane comments last night post game know we didn't played well enough.   

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Serbia are an average side, their midfield is made up of a Fulham squad player and an aging player who was in and out at Sevilla, often at centre back. Thankfully they didnt have the quality going forward and our defence held strong but there was no need for it to be as difficult as it became.

Serbia played well and they should get their credit they deserved. 

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Even when Foden plays to the left for City he is so much better than he is for England. Got to look at the manager. Although we had world class players having to try and feed off hopeless long balls for the last hour.

Cos Foden is stayed wide at City but for England he played inside when we attacking like second number 10 with Tripper providing the width on the left. Hopefully Shaw will play some part in the next game then start the 3rd game

 

@Bohinen1983 Saka and Eze aren't wing backs at all

[chaddyrovers]

20 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Continental refs are included to let a bit of the rough stuff go these days.

I think the standard of refereeing and the use of VAR has been superb this tournament  

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I think the standard of refereeing and the use of VAR has been superb this tournament  

Me too. I’ve watched most of the games and I haven’t seen a poor refereeing performance so far. They’ve all kept control pretty well. This new rule were only the captain can approach the ref seems to be working. 
When I say “ rough stuff “ it’s not really, we’ve just become accustomed to a less physical game these days.

Edited June 17 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Me too. I’ve watched most of the games and I haven’t seen a poor refereeing performance so far. They’ve all kept control pretty well.

I watched every game so far and the refereeing performances have been good, but also how VAR has been used. We aren't waiting 3 or 4 minutes for decisions to be made. 

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

This new rule were only the captain can approach the ref seems to be working.

bring it into the English game please

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

I watched every game so far and the refereeing performances have been good, but also how VAR has been used. We aren't waiting 3 or 4 minutes for decisions to be made. 

bring it into the English game please

Definitely.

[Lancaster Rover]

I thought that was poor last night.

For all the talk of England played well for 30 minutes, that was in large part due to Serbia being so incredibly passive, the minute they realised they were in a game and started to press England in any was they folded like a deckchair. For all the possession in those first 30 minutes it was all just recycling the ball without any incision or movement that would open up passing lanes. Massive difference to Italy the night before, who moved the ball with real purpose in order to move Albania to create gaps. 

The desperate shoehorning of TAA into the team created a massive imbalance, everyone knows he cannot defend, as a result Rice sat so deep in order to cover the mistakes that everyone knew would happen. 

The game was crying out for genuine width second half to stretch the play and give Serbia something to think about, instead Southgate brought on willing (but limited) runners who scurried around in our own half. What was needed was an out ball to get them up the pitch. 

The shape doesn't bring the best out of England's best assets

[den]

That was worrying. 
 

Got to look at Southgate. Just for starters,  what was the game plan - anyone know? We struggled big time for an hour of the game. What did he change? - nothing that made any difference and if he can’t change anything what chance do we have going forward?
 

Early days of course and sometimes teams grow into tournaments, but TBH, looking at last nights hopeless performance I can’t see England giving any of the better sides a game.

and there was me believing England have some top quality, technically excellent young players. Last night, apart from one, they were second best to Serbia.

[Ghost7]

Southgate makes changes without actually changing anything. He's England's biggest problem.

[Hasta]

Wierd thing last night is, despite the fact we were piss poor in the second half, only Trent and Foden actually played badly. Kane wasnt great but did spend a lot of the half trying to get on the ball to get us out and drawing free kicks, and was unlucky with the header.

The rest of the side all did their job. The keeper didnt do anything wrong. The defenders all individually played well (Trippier obvsioiuly struggles getting forward but defensively he was solid). Rice was very good. Bellingham was gvery ood. Saka was good first half, Bowen did well replacing him.

And yet we really struggled in the end against a Serbia team who on individual quality (based on league performances and the clubs they play for) should be inferior. That's got to be the way we set up tactically.

[joey_big_nose]

I was at the game... Great atmosphere. Englishs belting out Phil Fodens on fire to the tune of dancing in the dark in the concourse was quality, very atmospheric...

First time I have seen England play in a major tournament and I assumed from all the press etc it would be a tightly policed operation with segregation... But actually once in the ground all the English, Sebs and neutrals were completely free to wonder around and mix together. Atmosphere was a positive one... A bit of booing of the national anthem by both sides but that was the extent of provocation really...

We were sitting with Serbs one side and English the other, all good. Almost like a rugby game mixing of fans.

Food waaaaay better than at English grounds that Ive experienced.. the watered down beer was pretty minging though..

In terms of the game a typically unconvincing England performance. Thought TAA was coming in to act like a quarter back but he didnt do that, instead pressed on into the final third. Really confused me as if that was the plan why pick TAA when you have better players for that more attacking role? So we ended up with a really disjointed central midfield which ended up relying on Bellingham to drop deep and help out which considering how defensive Serbia was should not have been necessary...

Basically Saka and Bellingham were brilliant and won us the game. Bellingham ability in the air (alongside everything else) is going to beba major asset for us. Everyone else passable but not inspiring. One other positive is that Guehi looks like he could be a very good partner for Stones. Beyond that the lack of any left sided width is a major issue, and  how we pass and move the ball in midfield compared to Germany or Spain is so far off. We need to solve those two things quickly....

[Lancaster Rover]

Kane isn’t a 10 as long as I have a hole in my head, opposition defenders are happy to let him drop in midfield and have the ball there as it means they can squeeze up and compress the play.
 

Even if they don’t push up he’s not going to turn and run anyone so centre halves are happy for him to go in there. Even if they let him turn England weren’t going to get in behind so it’s zero threat.  Kane going wandering is part of the problem. 

Someone  needs to get hold of him and tell him to stay as high as possible. Too many players being allowed to play where they want rather than where they should. 

Edited June 17 by Lancaster Rover

[Mercer]

Under whelming performance.

After the first 30 minutes we had no control of the game.  Southgate needs to show some balls and start with Wharton next to Rice.

TAA is not an international class midfielder.

Foden has yet to sparkle at international level.

Gallagher should not be on the pitch and neither should Mainoo - neither have the ability to pass and control a game like Wharton can.

[London blue]

First comment on this...

The game was underwhelming but a fine start in our toughest group game on paper.

Foden looked like he was waiting for City passing patters to open up and I've noticed that a few times he's played. I wouldn't mind Gordon or Eze starting on the left next game.

Rice brilliant, Bellingham a monster.

I'm not sure about Trent. Obviously I'd love to see Wharton in there but yesterday wasn't the game for it, I feel. I actually thought Trent had a poor game, his radar seemed off.

Hopefully Shaw is back soon as Trippier is so right footed, him playing behind Foden made our left hand side toothless. 

Did Southgate freeze a little? Gallagher did what was needed coming on but I thought someone quick on the left hand side might have stretched the game and given them something to worry about in the last 20 mins. I'm a big fan of Southgate but I do worry that the inability to change the game with subs is a trait of his.

[MarkBRFC71]

Positives:

3 points - when all's said and done we got the result.  However it was in no way convincing and could easily have been a draw.

Bellingham - superb.

Guehi - considering our defence was supposed to be our weakness, I thought he - all of them to be fair - did well defensively, especially against two very physical strikers.

Negatives:

TAA - simply not a midfielder.  One Hollywood ball every 25 passes does not an international footballer make.  Positionally poor, first touch is average, loses the ball way too much and too easily under pressure.

Trippier - shouldn't be in the squad, never mind starting.  Should have taken an actual LB if we need someone to fill the gap until Shaw is fit, eg Tyrick Mitchell.  He looked OK defensively but offered zero going forward and predictably turned inside every time.  Couple that with Foden drifting in constantly meant that there was absolutely nothing coming from the left.

Foden - in danger of being the new John Barnes, ie great for his club but doesn't fit into the England team.  If he's going to play it has to be at nbr 10 - but unfortunately for him we already have perhaps the world's best 10 at the moment blocking his path.

Southgate - once again, just like the final v Italy, we go 1-0 up and drop deeper and deeper trying to defend it instead of keeping the momentum going and trying to put the opposition to the sword.  Subs - poor choices, too few and too late.  Palmer should've been on instead of Bowen, Gallagher I thought did OK in that he at least added the energy and willingness to get in people's faces which TAA didn't.  Foden should have been taken off for Gordon, also I'd have subbed Kane for Toney to give them something different to think about.

Overall - a win's a win but it was far from inspiring.  Southgate needs to stop falling into the trap of trying to shoehorn players into unfamiliar roles just to accommodate them playing.