England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[Dreams of 1995]

Having Trippier at left back caused issues because he was forced inside constantly

If you think back to our goal v Italy in the last final, it started from Shaw taking the ball at the left back position and opening his body out. It brought us out from defence quickly. With a right footed left-back, you don't get that

I do wonder why don't move to 3 at the back. Walker isn't really an attacking right back. He's best when he is left at the back to mark 1 on 1. Playing 3 at the back with Walker, Stones and Guehi there would give us much more of an attacking emphasis. Play Saka on the left. It is not like we haven't got others who can play right wing. You can then put TAA at RWB where he is much better. His best period of play was the first half where we focused our play down that right flank

But this is the thing with football, we all have an opinion. I think Southgate is here to just win games. Unfortunately, that mentality might let us down against better teams. Spain or Germany would have picked us up apart yesterday and so we have to improve. I hope that was our bad performance out of the way and we move on better & stronger

We should beat Denmark. Meaning we will top the group and have an easier last 16. That is the way I am looking at it

[roverandout]

13 hours ago, Trinidad Rover said:

Italy won and controlled a game coming from behind. Germany dismantled a Scotland side with more premier league/top tier players than this Serbia side. LOL!

 

We smashed them home and away in qualifying.  This isn't the Italy side of 3 years ago. They've lost a number of key players and scraped past a worse team than the one we played last night 

[joey_big_nose]

14 minutes ago, MarkBRFC71 said:

Positives:

3 points - when all's said and done we got the result.  However it was in no way convincing and could easily have been a draw.

Bellingham - superb.

Guehi - considering our defence was supposed to be our weakness, I thought he - all of them to be fair - did well defensively, especially against two very physical strikers.

Negatives:

TAA - simply not a midfielder.  One Hollywood ball every 25 passes does not an international footballer make.  Positionally poor, first touch is average, loses the ball way too much and too easily under pressure.

Trippier - shouldn't be in the squad, never mind starting.  Should have taken an actual LB if we need someone to fill the gap until Shaw is fit, eg Tyrick Mitchell.  He looked OK defensively but offered zero going forward and predictably turned inside every time.  Couple that with Foden drifting in constantly meant that there was absolutely nothing coming from the left.

Foden - in danger of being the new John Barnes, ie great for his club but doesn't fit into the England team.  If he's going to play it has to be at nbr 10 - but unfortunately for him we already have perhaps the world's best 10 at the moment blocking his path.

Southgate - once again, just like the final v Italy, we go 1-0 up and drop deeper and deeper trying to defend it instead of keeping the momentum going and trying to put the opposition to the sword.  Subs - poor choices, too few and too late.  Palmer should've been on instead of Bowen, Gallagher I thought did OK in that he at least added the energy and willingness to get in people's faces which TAA didn't.  Foden should have been taken off for Gordon, also I'd have subbed Kane for Toney to give them something different to think about.

Overall - a win's a win but it was far from inspiring.  Southgate needs to stop falling into the trap of trying to shoehorn players into unfamiliar roles just to accommodate them playing.

Only challenge I have to that is Bowen, I thought he was very good. I was surprised when he came on, but he immediately caused them problems 

I wonder if we could put Palmer on the left as he is left footed and could give us some width. We should use the next two games to try that out.

[TheRevAshton]

Incredibly underwhelming, we'll struggle to get to the quarters playing like that!

The squad has bags of talent, but a god awful coach - how on earth did he ever get the job?

This team would be different gravy under a proper coach, Graham Potter should have been brought in for this IMO.

One thing is becoming more and more clear for this England squad... Adam Wharton is inevitable. We'd have won 3-0 if he played 90 last night.

Edited June 17 by TheRevAshton

[RoverDom]

I'm very pro going 3-5-2

 

TAA Walker stones Ghuei Shaw(when fit)

Rice  Bellingham 

Saka Kane & someone else other than foden

 

Gets trent on the field with reduced defensive responsibility. Gives stones the option to step into midfield like he does for city allowing Bellingham to go where he likes. Gives us a bit of width as well. 

 

 

[Lancaster Rover]

I think Italy are a really good side. The lack of exposure of Italian football in the country lulls people into thinking they’re not top level because we’ve not seen them week in week out, nobody was talking about Caliofori before the competition and I can guarantee by the end of it he’ll be one of the top defenders 

[Ianrally]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

Under whelming performance.

Foden has yet to sparkle at international level.

Gallagher should not be on the pitch and neither should Mainoo - neither have the ability to pass and control a game like Wharton can.

Sums up exactly why we are continually frustrated watching England. 
The likes of Foden and most other England players, shine when playing for their club sides but they are surrounded by many World class players whereas in the England team World class players are at a premium, Bellingham excepted. 

[AllRoverAsia]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

Under whelming performance.

After the first 30 minutes we had no control of the game.  Southgate needs to show some balls and start with Wharton next to Rice.

TAA is not an international class midfielder.

Foden has yet to sparkle at international level.

Gallagher should not be on the pitch and neither should Mainoo - neither have the ability to pass and control a game like Wharton can.

I've watched Mainoo quite a bit. Mundane, good at triangles going nowhere.

Gallagher FFS what is his selection all about. Same goes for that Liverpool waste of space TAA.

[Hasta]

8 hours ago, MarkBRFC71 said:

Trippier - shouldn't be in the squad, never mind starting.  Should have taken an actual LB if we need someone to fill the gap until Shaw is fit, eg Tyrick Mitchell.  He looked OK defensively but offered zero going forward and predictably turned inside every time.  Couple that with Foden drifting in constantly meant that there was absolutely nothing coming from the left.

I mean, Trippier clearly should be in the squad. He's a good right back cover for Walker and can defensively do a job at LB. He hardly put a foot wrong in that regard.

If he was there all tournament I would bemoan not having a 'proper' left back, but to cover for a game or two until Shaw gets up to speed I see no problem with. 

If you're playing him there though then as you say, you can’t have Foden keep drifting in all the time. You'd be better with Eze or Gordon, two left footers, out there.

 

Edited June 17 by Hasta

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

We were too deep to be playing out and Kane kept the ball and winning good fouls for the team by playing it up to him. 

Yes we do have better standard of players than Serbia but they played well after 35 mins. 

I might have been tempted to go to back 5 last night and played 2 up front of Bellingham and Kane after 60 mins or have brought on Palmer or Gordon for Foden. Bowen did well when he came on and Kane would have scored without Keeper saving

 

Yes it was poor performance after 35 mins and everyone focus is on the last 55 mins but not the first 35 mins. 

We started slowly every tournament, we did at Euro 2020 and we got to the final that tournament. The best is we know we can improve and Bellingham/Kane comments last night post game know we didn't played well enough.   

Serbia played well and they should get their credit they deserved. 

Cos Foden is stayed wide at City but for England he played inside when we attacking like second number 10 with Tripper providing the width on the left. Hopefully Shaw will play some part in the next game then start the 3rd game

 

@Bohinen1983 Saka and Eze aren't wing backs at all

You keep talking about starting slowly as if thats something to strive for.

Serbia are a big and physical but ultimately limited side. Southgate's approach of long ball made the game far closer than it ought to be. Had we continued as we started with one and two touched they couldnt cope with it.

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I think the standard of refereeing and the use of VAR has been superb this tournament  

Would you want to stick with VAR if it was used as efficiently in the Prem?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Having Trippier at left back caused issues because he was forced inside constantly

If you think back to our goal v Italy in the last final, it started from Shaw taking the ball at the left back position and opening his body out. It brought us out from defence quickly. With a right footed left-back, you don't get that

I do wonder why don't move to 3 at the back. Walker isn't really an attacking right back. He's best when he is left at the back to mark 1 on 1. Playing 3 at the back with Walker, Stones and Guehi there would give us much more of an attacking emphasis. Play Saka on the left. It is not like we haven't got others who can play right wing. You can then put TAA at RWB where he is much better. His best period of play was the first half where we focused our play down that right flank

But this is the thing with football, we all have an opinion. I think Southgate is here to just win games. Unfortunately, that mentality might let us down against better teams. Spain or Germany would have picked us up apart yesterday and so we have to improve. I hope that was our bad performance out of the way and we move on better & stronger

We should beat Denmark. Meaning we will top the group and have an easier last 16. That is the way I am looking at it

I was thinking along the same lines as you. When you get the guys in training you weigh up what they can do, what they are good at and what they are not good at. Then you decide on your system of play and who’s going to play in it.  Looking at the five you chose I would suggest that system plays more into their skill set, especially if we can get Shaw fit. Saka would have to do in the interim as a left wing back. As someone else suggested that would allow Stones to come out with the ball at times.

Before your time we were struggling like last night  in the 1990 World Cup playing in an orthodox fashion so the players nagged the manager to try 5 at the back. He did and the change was remarkable. We looked a completely different team.

Edited June 17 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You keep talking about starting slowly as if thats something to strive for.

Serbia are a big and physical but ultimately limited side. Southgate's approach of long ball made the game far closer than it ought to be. Had we continued as we started with one and two touched they couldnt cope with it.

Would you want to stick with VAR if it was used as efficiently in the Prem?

We picked a team of passing players to play ale house football in the second half.

[sharpysharps86]

As many others have said, it was a very underwhelming first game. Pretty much a typical England performance. Started promisingly, got a goal early and then as the game went on they gradually sat deeper and invited pressure.....a bit like another team we all know!

Trippier on the left just didn't work at all. Foden disappointing as he has been many times for England. For all the talk of Foden needing to play centrally, regardless of where you play you still need to look as though you want the ball and do the basics right. He couldn't play simple passes last night when under no pressure. I'd be dropping him for Denmark and bringing in Anthony Gordon or Cole Palmer. Foden is a good enough player that he should be able to do much better than last night regardless of being on the wide left.

Alexander-Arnold clearly doesn't have the composure to play alongside Rice when it comes to facing better teams than Serbia. That role is crying out for Wharton. Hopefully Adam gets a chance to start against Slovenia if we beat Denmark.

The above being said, the score could've easily been 3 nil with Walker's bursting run in the first half (not sure whether the nudge from their defender put him off but I don't know why he didn't just put his foot through it), and the wonderful save from the Serbian keeper to deny Kane in the 2nd half.

Ultimately, nothing I saw convinced me that England can go all the way. If anything they look a bit weaker than in the previous 2 tournaments to me, despite the undoubted talent of Bellingham.

[chaddyrovers]

16 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You keep talking about starting slowly as if thats something to strive for.

No, we were known for starting slowly and that's going back 18 years ago to Euro 96 when we drew 1-1 with Switzerland 

16 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Serbia are a big and physical but ultimately limited side. Southgate's approach of long ball made the game far closer than it ought to be. Had we continued as we started with one and two touched they couldnt cope with it.

Serbia played well, give them the credit they deserved instead its England was poor without given them credit. 

Serbia didn't allow us to continue with our short passing cos they pushed further up the pitch. 

I don't think it was Southgate's approach of long ball but how the game went. 

16 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Would you want to stick with VAR if it was used as efficiently in the Prem?

Can we be that efficient and quick with VAR like we are seeing? But its not just about VAR but the refs are better. They actually made decisions and right ones. 

[Gav]

You read some of the comments on this thread and many are highly critical of the way we played, the selection policy and Southgate himself. I've already forgotten about the performance, in tournament football its all about the results, nothing else really matters. 

I've not read much of the press in the lead up to Euro 2024, I have no idea if they're building everyone's hopes up to a level where a 1-0 win in the opening match is seen as some kind of failure. Or is it actually the fans themselves, thinking we've won the tournament already? I can never recall a time when so many fans expect so much, its usually, "If we can make the semi final we'd have done well" but the message from fans I speak to for Euro 2024 - "Best side by a country mile, we should win this".

Its the hope that usually kills you, this time around it could be the expectation! 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Ukraine v Rumania is 100 miles an hour stuff. End to end. No walking football in this game.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

No, we were known for starting slowly and that's going back 18 years ago to Euro 96 when we drew 1-1 with Switzerland 

Serbia played well, give them the credit they deserved instead its England was poor without given them credit. 

Serbia didn't allow us to continue with our short passing cos they pushed further up the pitch. 

I don't think it was Southgate's approach of long ball but how the game went. 

Can we be that efficient and quick with VAR like we are seeing? But its not just about VAR but the refs are better. They actually made decisions and right ones. 

But again, a slow start isnt something to strive for. Its just a pointless cliche. We didnt win Euro 96 either.

If we are as good as we think we are then we wouldnt allow Serbia to have the game on their terms for most of the game.

Everytime Pickford got the ball he just smashed it high in the air to Kane who more often than not was outjumped by one of 3 giant centre backs. That is not Serbia forcing their style onto us, that was us for some reason playing to their style.

We have Saka who is quick and also players on the bench who are quick who offer a threat in behind, Serbia's defence was slow and not the best on the ball so we should have tried to expose them with quick passing and movement.

1 hour ago, Gav said:

You read some of the comments on this thread and many are highly critical of the way we played, the selection policy and Southgate himself. I've already forgotten about the performance, in tournament football its all about the results, nothing else really matters. 

I've not read much of the press in the lead up to Euro 2024, I have no idea if they're building everyone's hopes up to a level where a 1-0 win in the opening match is seen as some kind of failure. Or is it actually the fans themselves, thinking we've won the tournament already? I can never recall a time when so many fans expect so much, its usually, "If we can make the semi final we'd have done well" but the message from fans I speak to for Euro 2024 - "Best side by a country mile, we should win this".

Its the hope that usually kills you, this time around it could be the expectation! 

 

Its not a case of people being annoyed because the football was boring. It is more the fear that playing in such a way does not best suit these players and will cause issues against better sides.

Obviously the result isnt a failure but there are red flags in the performance.

[chaddyrovers]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

But again, a slow start isnt something to strive for. Its just a pointless cliche. We didnt win Euro 96 either.

No it's what always happened with us. No we got to semi-finals and same with Euro 2020 which we did well and got the final in. 

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If we are as good as we think we are then we wouldnt allow Serbia to have the game on their terms for most of the game.

Serbia created very little. No clear cut chances did they. We had 2. 

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Everytime Pickford got the ball he just smashed it high in the air to Kane who more often than not was outjumped by one of 3 giant centre backs. That is not Serbia forcing their style onto us, that was us for some reason playing to their style.

Serbia pressed right up on us. Kane was holding the ball up and winning fouls similar to what Shearer would have done 

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We have Saka who is quick and also players on the bench who are quick who offer a threat in behind, Serbia's defence was slow and not the best on the ball so we should have tried to expose them with quick passing and movement.

Saka second half was man marked out the game. Bowen came off and did well creating that great chance for Kane. Defensive he was also good. 

We won. Simple as. That's how tournament football is about. Winning. Something under Southgate we have been good at, is getting through to 1 semi final and 1 final. Something we haven't seen Euro 96

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

You read some of the comments on this thread and many are highly critical of the way we played, the selection policy and Southgate himself. I've already forgotten about the performance, in tournament football its all about the results, nothing else really matters. 

I've not read much of the press in the lead up to Euro 2024, I have no idea if they're building everyone's hopes up to a level where a 1-0 win in the opening match is seen as some kind of failure. Or is it actually the fans themselves, thinking we've won the tournament already? I can never recall a time when so many fans expect so much, its usually, "If we can make the semi final we'd have done well" but the message from fans I speak to for Euro 2024 - "Best side by a country mile, we should win this".

Its the hope that usually kills you, this time around it could be the expectation! 

 

You might need to widen your social circle.

The fans I speak to say that the defence isn't good enough and Southgate is too negative.

[Exiled_Rover]

43 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Ukraine v Rumania is 100 miles an hour stuff. End to end. No walking football in this game.

Entertaining for the neutral, but neither team is a threat.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Ukraine totally out enthused by a very hard working, energetic Romania team. 

[roversfan99]

50 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

No it's what always happened with us. No we got to semi-finals and same with Euro 2020 which we did well and got the final in. 

Serbia created very little. No clear cut chances did they. We had 2. 

Serbia pressed right up on us. Kane was holding the ball up and winning fouls similar to what Shearer would have done 

Saka second half was man marked out the game. Bowen came off and did well creating that great chance for Kane. Defensive he was also good. 

We won. Simple as. That's how tournament football is about. Winning. Something under Southgate we have been good at, is getting through to 1 semi final and 1 final. Something we haven't seen Euro 96

If discussion was as straightforward as just either win, draw or lose, it would be pretty boring.

The win is obviously the important part but I felt like the tactics were counterproductive and negative and played into the Serbian's hands. Against better sides, I fear that we could come unstuck.

You keep using cliches such as slow starters and comparing Kane to Shearer but using Kane as a battering ram seems again like not the way to get the best out of him. We have technical players in attacking areas yet not long after going one up our tactics seemed to change to just sitting in and going long and it didnt work, making the last hour much more hard work than it should have been.

[Gav]

42 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

You might need to widen your social circle.

The fans I speak to say that the defence isn't good enough and Southgate is too negative.

After we reached the final of Euros at the last attempt with this 'negative football', the first final in over 50yrs and we kept a clean sheet last night, I'm not sure my social circle is the problem Exiled 🤣 

But seriously, it does go some way to explaining why some people are not happy to beat Serbia 1-0.

Edited June 17 by Gav

[MarkBRFC71]

3 hours ago, Hasta said:

I mean, Trippier clearly should be in the squad. He's a good right back cover for Walker and can defensively do a job at LB. He hardly put a foot wrong in that regard.

If he was there all tournament I would bemoan not having a 'proper' left back, but to cover for a game or two until Shaw gets up to speed I see no problem with. 

If you're playing him there though then as you say, you can have Foden keep drifting in all the time. You'd be better with Eze or Gordon, two left footers, out there.

 

Do we need Trippier to offer RB cover when we've got Gomez and Trent who could cover Walker - arguably more proficiently?  I still maintain that Mitchell would've been a better option as he's an actual LB, and being the most likely option to succeed Shaw it would have been good experience against lesser opponents in the group stages, rather than someone who's very much a stop-gap who shouldn't be starting at international level anymore.  I agree defensively he did OK but offered absolutely nothing going forward.

Agree about Gordon or Eze though - one of them has to play next game out left.

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

We won. Simple as. That's how tournament football is about. Winning. Something under Southgate we have been good at, is getting through to 1 semi final and 1 final. Something we haven't seen Euro 96

To win a tournament you have to be a very good and cohesive football unit.

We aren't and haven't really been so for a huge amount of time and that's why our last tournament win was way, way back in 1966!!!

You look at previous tournament winners like Brazil, Argentina, West Germany, Germany, France, Italy, Spain etc and they were streets and streets ahead of our current team.

The trouble is Southgate is too negative and struck by big player syndrome - our problem is the whole is NOT greater than the sum of its individual parts.

I would go:

Pickford / Walker, Stones, Guehi, Gomez / Rice, Wharton / Bellingham/ Saka, Kane, Eze

Gomez is a much, much better lb than Trippier and played there in 20ish games or so for Liverpool this season.

TAA is not an international class midfielder and gives you no control in midfield whereas Wharton would.

Foden has done feck all in an England shirt whilst Eze has been on fire for Palcace and Wharton knows his runs, game etc.