England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[rigger]

11 minutes ago, Blow-in said:

All good points, the main ones being huge competition in Ireland for sports with Garlic games.

The abysmal running of the FAI. Huge corruption meaning what little money the govt gave them was misappropriated. Just look at the farcical search for a manager 6 months in and they are going to end up giving it to John O'Shea by default. What sort of mandate does that give him to make changes? And what message is that to young players coming through?

Glad we are not at the tournament as I would be embarrassed.

Garlic games, is that where you stay as far away from your opponents as is possible.

Edited June 24 by rigger

[Darrenbot]

Gallagher has done sod all in the 2 games he's been subbed on so hey why not start him instead.ffs get rid of Southgate asap

[bluebruce]

2 hours ago, Adam C said:

I have a Croatian colleague and I asked him the same question. 

He says football is massive in Croatia so everyone plays it with no other team sport anywhere near as popular. The big clubs have an excellent scouting network and as soon as a youngster shows any talent then Zagreb or Hajduk snap them up and get them into a proper training setup. He said the youth system at those two clubs is excellent and there is a good pathway to the first team as the league is of a low standard. Added to that all the big European clubs have scouts in Croatia, so any good league players are quickly signed up for one of the top leagues where they continue their development at the highest level. 

Comparing this to Scotland I can’t see why they don’t produce players of a similar quality. I suppose rugby is popular in Scotland so good youngsters could end up playing it rather than football. I’m guessing the youth system at rangers and Celtic isn’t particularly good as they seem to sign a lot of foreign players and we don’t much hear about the next big thing coming through in Scotland. 

Ireland is a special case imo as there’s so much more competition here between sports - Gaelic, hurling, football and rugby are all very popular, and I’d say football is possibly the poorest supported. The youth system here is atrocious and chronically underfunded. Add to that any talented kid coming through might find himself playing for England if he’s particularly good a la grealish and Rice. 
 

edit: for me the real gold standard is Uruguay. Similarly tiny population but incredibly successful at international level. There always seems to be at least one world class Uruguayan player somewhere in the world. 

This is a good post but your examples of Rice and Grealish are strange ones to pick given your other points. Yes they have Irish heritage and played in the ROI youth teams first, but they were neither born nor developed in Ireland. They'd only qualify through grandparents, so it has nothing to do with Ireland's domestic league etc. They didn't 'come through' in Ireland.

[bluebruce]

3 minutes ago, rigger said:

Garlic games, is that where you stay as far away from your opponents as is possible.

No you're thinking of Tyler Morton games.

[joey_big_nose]

I'll be very disappointed if we go for Gallagher. But can definitely see it happening.

[joey_big_nose]

4 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

Gallagher has done sod all in the 2 games he's been subbed on so hey why not start him instead.ffs get rid of Southgate asap

He did improve our pressing etc... But why we needed him to come on and help with our pressing when every single player in the team is great at pressing for their clubs (with the exception of Kane) really escapes me.

I generally cut a manager a lot of slack and try to be as fair as possible. Think Southgate has done well as the manager. But something really isn't right at the moment.

[Ianrally]

4 hours ago, rigger said:

Most of the scots players from that period were both aggressive and physical. Rule changes have taken most of those abilities out of the game, so those same players would be a liability with todays refs.

You're quite right when you consider the likes of Bremner, Souness, Crerand.

But not when you look at the likes of Jimmy Johnstone, Jim Baxter or Kenny Dalgleish.

Why they can't find players of their talent anymore is strange. I think it must be down to the fact that kids aren't interested in playing football anymore and I'm thinking from their very early years playing in the street, that just doesn't happen anymore. Probably why ball control has gone out the window too.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

 

I generally cut a manager a lot of slack and try to be as fair as possible. Think Southgate has done well as the manager. But something really isn't right at the moment.

Yeah, this isn’t like the sides Southgate has put out before 

Typically we have been hard to beat and can be too defensive depending on your outlook, but always looked a threat when going forward and organised

This tournament has been a real outlier. The players don’t seem to know their roles and the balance of the team is just off. I don’t understand what he’s trying to do to be honest. Dropping TAA is a start, but it doesn’t fix the issues we have when on the ball

It all looks like an unhappy camp 

[Blow-in]

3 hours ago, rigger said:

Garlic games, is that where you stay as far away from your opponents as is possible.

Damn you auto correct 😂 

[Adam C]

3 hours ago, Blow-in said:

All good points, the main ones being huge competition in Ireland for sports with Garlic games.

The abysmal running of the FAI. Huge corruption meaning what little money the govt gave them was misappropriated. Just look at the farcical search for a manager 6 months in and they are going to end up giving it to John O'Shea by default. What sort of mandate does that give him to make changes? And what message is that to young players coming through?

Glad we are not at the tournament as I would be embarrassed.

It’s a disaster. I actually live in Northern Ireland and we can’t even get a stadium built so we can host matches at the next Euros. And I said the exact same thing after Germany stuffed Scotland - thank god neither NI not the Republic made it to the finals as we’d have been the worst team at it. Sad times. 

3 hours ago, bluebruce said:

This is a good post but your examples of Rice and Grealish are strange ones to pick given your other points. Yes they have Irish heritage and played in the ROI youth teams first, but they were neither born nor developed in Ireland. They'd only qualify through grandparents, so it has nothing to do with Ireland's domestic league etc. They didn't 'come through' in Ireland.

Fair point, they didn’t come through at club level here and they really aren’t Irish. I’m not complaining and I understand why they chose to play for England. But…. I’m sure a lot of work went into their development at youth level and they both had caps for the full squad I believe. Bit gutting that two top midfielders decided to ditch the national squad, especially when we’re in dire need of quality players. I’d say this will happen again - it’s not unheard of for Irish people to have British grandparents and vice versa, my point was that the next big thing coming through for Ireland could also decide to play for England. I actually think Harry Kane and Wayne Rooney could’ve qualified for Ireland! 

[chaddyrovers]

4 hours ago, Displaced Rover said:

The FA should sack him on the spot before kick off if that's the only change when he goes to submit his team sheet.

People over reacted again. I wouldn't have picked Gallagher myself to partner Rice but it is better than TAA playing there. I would also drop Saka aswell. 

[Claytons Left Boot]

Regarding the Scotland debate, I can’t really provide any reasons as to why there aren’t the number of youngsters coming through the ranks any more, certainly in comparison to those that did in the 1960s to the early 90s.

As always, money comes into the equation. In England, the recent Premier League deal with Sky/TNT Sports is worth £6.7 billion over four years, whilst the Scottish Premiership equivalent deal is worth a paltry £150 million. You do the maths, as the saying goes.

Less money at the Scottish clubs to spend on youth development, the improving of facilities, building or expanding academies, the paying of wages and so on. Lads that may have made it 40 or 50 years ago may be don’t bother any more.

A relatively recent piece in the Daily Record highlighted eight Celtic youth starlets that have been cherry picked into academies at Liverpool, Leeds, Bayern Munich, Watford, New York Red Bulls and Manchester City. Ben Doak who went to Liverpool was reported to have been offered £12k a week, an amount that a fair chunk of Celtic’s first team squad won’t be on even now. So even the ones that do come through the system get whisked away before they’ve had a chance to establish themselves.

Money talks.

[Darrenbot]

I'm thinking Croatia v Italy or Spain v Albania ,which game shall i watch? then i hear Danny Murphy's voice doing Italy,Spain game it is then.

[simongarnerisgod]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

People over reacted again. I wouldn't have picked Gallagher myself to partner Rice but it is better than TAA playing there. I would also drop Saka aswell. 

saka is to lightweight,he`s always on his arse,id`e put gordon in,direct and hard to knock off the ball,he tracks back as well as never stops running

[roverandout]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

People over reacted again. I wouldn't have picked Gallagher myself to partner Rice but it is better than TAA playing there. I would also drop Saka aswell. 

Lol saying Gallagher is better than trent playing there is like saying it's better to be hanged than put in the electric chair 

[roverandout]

14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

People over reacted again. I wouldn't have picked Gallagher myself to partner Rice but it is better than TAA playing there. I would also drop Saka aswell. 

Saka has been our best outlet.  Do u watch England games

[Dreams of 1995]

Saka has been the only player to beat a man, aside from that one run by Foden against Denmark

I would go with 3 at the back

Pickford

Walker Stones Guehi

Trent   Rice Bellingham Trippier (Or Shaw if fit) 

Saka Kane Gordon 

[chaddyrovers]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Saka has been the only player to beat a man, aside from that one run by Foden against Denmark

I would go with 3 at the back

Pickford

Walker Stones Guehi

Trent   Rice Bellingham Trippier (Or Shaw if fit) 

Saka Kane Gordon 

Shaw is out and rumours are Tripper is out

[Dreams of 1995]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Shaw is out and rumours are Tripper is out

 Could be a blessing in disguise Chad. I reckon Konsa or Gomez would do a better job 

[aletheia]

       Pickford

Walker Stones Guehi

    Rice    Bellingham

Bowen   Foden  Gordon 

         Saka  watkins

[roverandout]

3 minutes ago, aletheia said:

       Pickford

Walker Stones Guehi

    Rice    Bellingham

Bowen   Foden  Gordon 

         Saka  watkins

Bowen??? Watkins?? This is an awful team. No offence.  I agree with most of your team but the formation and some of the line up is poor

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, Adam C said:

Fair point, they didn’t come through at club level here and they really aren’t Irish. I’m not complaining and I understand why they chose to play for England. But…. I’m sure a lot of work went into their development at youth level and they both had caps for the full squad I believe. Bit gutting that two top midfielders decided to ditch the national squad, especially when we’re in dire need of quality players. I’d say this will happen again - it’s not unheard of for Irish people to have British grandparents and vice versa, my point was that the next big thing coming through for Ireland could also decide to play for England. I actually think Harry Kane and Wayne Rooney could’ve qualified for Ireland! 

As far as I can see, Grealish never played for the Irish senior side. In fact it seems he repeatedly rejected the offer to do so well before he got his England callup. Rice played in three friendlies. I'd say it's pretty clear these very much English lads only played youth and senior football for Ireland because they didn't know if they were going to get to play for England. I doubt anywhere near as much work on their development was done at Irish youth level as it was at their English clubs.

Honestly, no offence but I don't think you're in any position to lament it (I know you said you're not complaining), although I get why you'd wish it was different. These lads were only even available through a bit of a back door clause, the same clause that has allowed a lot of definitely English lads to play for you and improve your side. At the end of the day, if someone is English and has Irish grandparents, the only way you're going to get them playing for you is if they don't have enough faith they'll be able to play for England. And that works well for those players and for the ROI team. I can't think of any examples where it has gone the other way, and someone who is clearly Irish but has an English parent or grandparent has gone to play for England. The system works very well for you with no real downsides. It's not the reason your international side is poor, you already identified those reasons (plus small population).

You did have a nice patch in the 00s wasn't it? With Keane, Duff, Given. All players developed in England, two of them at Rovers actually. Maybe those days will come again at some point, the Irish can clearly produce good players, but Ireland really needs to work on popularising their domestic league and strengthening development infrastructure.

Kane and Rooney are just two more examples of very much English players. Of course they chose England. Even if Ireland were as good as us I'm sure they'd have chosen England. Just the fact they could have played for Ireland doesn't mean you have any entitlement to them.

Conversely I could point out how Bale could have played for England, and I was going to say Giggs too, but apparently he was never eligible (think he would be under current rules though). One or two of them in what is traditionally our weakest position and England might have actually won something!

Edited June 24 by bluebruce

[Ewood Ace]

A lot of pessimism about England but the draw is opening up very nicely again for them to get to the final. If they can win tomorrow then Portugal, Spain and Germany (the 3 best teams in my opinion so far) will all be in the other half and if they don't win by more than Netherlands tomorrow then France will be as well. 

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, Claytons Left Boot said:

Regarding the Scotland debate, I can’t really provide any reasons as to why there aren’t the number of youngsters coming through the ranks any more, certainly in comparison to those that did in the 1960s to the early 90s.

As always, money comes into the equation. In England, the recent Premier League deal with Sky/TNT Sports is worth £6.7 billion over four years, whilst the Scottish Premiership equivalent deal is worth a paltry £150 million. You do the maths, as the saying goes.

Less money at the Scottish clubs to spend on youth development, the improving of facilities, building or expanding academies, the paying of wages and so on. Lads that may have made it 40 or 50 years ago may be don’t bother any more.

A relatively recent piece in the Daily Record highlighted eight Celtic youth starlets that have been cherry picked into academies at Liverpool, Leeds, Bayern Munich, Watford, New York Red Bulls and Manchester City. Ben Doak who went to Liverpool was reported to have been offered £12k a week, an amount that a fair chunk of Celtic’s first team squad won’t be on even now. So even the ones that do come through the system get whisked away before they’ve had a chance to establish themselves.

Money talks.

The training regimes shouldn't really matter much in theory. Talented Scottish youngsters should be getting picked up by English sides who have the resources to develop them. The reason must go well beyond that. Perhaps the English clubs are looking further afield whereas they used to look more to Scotland, but that doesn't seem to have affected the England side. English clubs probably have better developed scouting in England than in Scotland but I doubt it's by orders of magnitude.

What you say about 8 Celtic starlets going to better academies should be a positive for developing Scotland internationals, but you don't seem to think it is?

Edited June 24 by bluebruce

[roverandout]

Just now, bluebruce said:

The training regimes shouldn't really matter much in theory. Talented Scottish youngsters should be getting picked up by English sides who have the resources to develop them. The reason must go well beyond that. Perhaps the English clubs are looking further afield whereas they used to look more to Scotland, but that doesn't seem to have affected the England side. English clubs probably have better developed scouting in England than in Scotland but I doubt it's by orders of magnitude.

No they shouldn't . English clubs should be developing English talent.  Scotland has its own league. They wouldn't do the same for us. I'm not interested in Scotland and Wales