England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[Upside Down]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I can’t see just swapping Mainoo for Gallagher being enough to get the show back on the road. 

Bang Wharton in there and they'll be a proper team. That's not even a blue and white tinted view, he's just far far better than anyone else they have in the deep lying midfield position.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

23 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

Bang Wharton in there and they'll be a proper team. That's not even a blue and white tinted view, he's just far far better than anyone else they have in the deep lying midfield position.

Our problem has been moving the ball quickly from defence into attack. We move the ball so slowly we allow our opponents to re-group most of the time. All this passing the ball along the back line is killing our attacking play. The one thing about Wharton is he moves the ball forward quickly.

[ABBEY]

11 hours ago, roverandout said:

Hojlund is awful

as rovers fans I think we keep quiet pal haha 

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, wilsdenrover said:

Maybe it shouldn’t be but it is in the law…

 

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

But in my opinion, Roy Keane’s and many others, the arm position was “ a consequence of the players body movement for that specific situation”

Therefore there is interpretation possible in the rule not to give that.

[USABlue]

Germany to win this rhing, they look good.  England to bow out in Italian style 

[ABBEY]

all about Spain 

[Mattyblue]

Italy 2006:
Gianluigi Buffon
Alessandro Nesta
Gianluca Zambrotta
Fabio Cannavaro
Marco Materazzi
Fabio Grosso
Andrea Pirlo
Gennaro Gattuso
Daniele De Rossi
Alessandro Del Piero
Francesco Totti…

and then that 2024 side 😬

[den]

2 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

Maybe it shouldn’t be but it is in the law…

 

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

Those are added extras to “help” the referee decide if it was deliberate. “Deliberate” being the key word. It’s never been the intention of law makers to make any contact between ball and arm/hand an offence. If it was an offence, there would be no need for anything else.

What I’m saying is what Arbitro said after my post. If VAR spots a possible handball then ask the referee by all means to take a look. He should be looking for only one thing - was it deliberate? Surely nobody would have given a penalty for that last night. The correct decision would have been made.

I would suggest don’t get VAR involved for any handball incidents but that’s not realistic in todays game.

[Forever Blue]

53 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Italy 2006:
Gianluigi Buffon
Alessandro Nesta
Gianluca Zambrotta
Fabio Cannavaro
Marco Materazzi
Fabio Grosso
Andrea Pirlo
Gennaro Gattuso
Daniele De Rossi
Alessandro Del Piero
Francesco Totti…

and then that 2024 side 😬

On a similar theme I was just reading that the England midfield 3 against Croatia in the WC SF in 2018 was Henderson. Dele Ali and Lingard.  I’m amazed we qualified.
 

 

Edited June 30 by Forever Blue

[wilsdenrover]

12 minutes ago, den said:

Those are added extras to “help” the referee decide if it was deliberate. “Deliberate” being the key word. It’s never been the intention of law makers to make any contact between ball and arm/hand an offence. If it was an offence, there would be no need for anything else.

What I’m saying is what Arbitro said after my post. If VAR spots a possible handball then ask the referee by all means to take a look. He should be looking for only one thing - was it deliberate? Surely nobody would have given a penalty for that last night. The correct decision would have been made.

I would suggest don’t get VAR involved for any handball incidents but that’s not realistic in todays game.

They aren’t added extras.

Deliberate handball is one of the handball offences, the one I put in my post is one of the others.

 

 

[wilsdenrover]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

But in my opinion, Roy Keane’s and many others, the arm position was “ a consequence of the players body movement for that specific situation”

Therefore there is interpretation possible in the rule not to give that.

Oh I agree with that 100% 

Personally I think they need to remove as much subjectivity from the laws as possible.

Instead, every rule change seems to be adding more scope for officials to interpret things ‘as they see them’

[joey_big_nose]

15 minutes ago, Forever Blue said:

On a similar theme I was just reading that the England midfield 3 against Croatia in the WC SF in 2018 was Henderson. Dele Ali and Lingard.  I’m amazed we qualified.
 

 

Yeah, Southgate gets a lot of grief but his record is fantastic with the players he has had available... His only real world class player he has had access to until 2022 is Kane.  I guess Kyle Walker, though I think him being put into that highest echelon has only really happened in the last couple of years. But a very modest squad generally beyond those players. The full team in the w/c 2018 semi : 

Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Ashley Young (as a left back!!!), Henderson, Alli, Lingard, Kane, Sterling.

Lots of really solid Premier League team players, but few who you would really say were top class and get into a Real Madrid, Barcelona, France XI.

This year he does have a lot more talent so obviously expectations are higher. But he has consistently met or beaten expectations I think every tournament he has gone into, I don't think anyone realistically thought we should beat France in the last WC, and before that we made a Semi-Final and a Final. Fair enough soft draws... But then if we are being picky 1990 we didn't play one of the big nations until the semis either. 

[joey_big_nose]

I did also have a cheeky look to see what England's knockout stage was like in 1966 and see if that could be accused of being soft too! But fair to say no... QF : Argentina, SF : Eusebio's Portugal, Final : Beckenbaeur's West Germany. Doing it the hard way!

[Forever Blue]

Southgate has certainly had luck when it’s come to group stages and knockout opponents in major finals, but he deserves  a lot of credit for what he’s achieved. He’ll go down as one of the most successful managers we’ve ever had. 
 

I want him to win it if just to shut up insufferably smug wankers like Lineker. 

[philipl]

England were the most boring team in the most boring Group.

Wharton to come on as 115th minute sub and it goes to penalties...

[joey_big_nose]

42 minutes ago, Forever Blue said:

Southgate has certainly had luck when it’s come to group stages and knockout opponents in major finals, but he deserves  a lot of credit for what he’s achieved. He’ll go down as one of the most successful managers we’ve ever had. 
 

I want him to win it if just to shut up insufferably smug wankers like Lineker. 

I dont think Lineker has said anything different than 90% of fans and commentators have said including on this venerable messageboard!

Edited June 30 by joey_big_nose

[Admiral Nelsen]

27 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Yeah, Southgate gets a lot of grief but his record is fantastic with the players he has had available... His only real world class player he has had access to until 2022 is Kane.  I guess Kyle Walker, though I think him being put into that highest echelon has only really happened in the last couple of years. But a very modest squad generally beyond those players. The full team in the w/c 2018 semi : 

Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Ashley Young (as a left back!!!), Henderson, Alli, Lingard, Kane, Sterling.

Lots of really solid Premier League team players, but few who you would really say were top class and get into a Real Madrid, Barcelona, France XI.

This year he does have a lot more talent so obviously expectations are higher. But he has consistently met or beaten expectations I think every tournament he has gone into, I don't think anyone realistically thought we should beat France in the last WC, and before that we made a Semi-Final and a Final. Fair enough soft draws... But then if we are being picky 1990 we didn't play one of the big nations until the semis either. 

 

I think it's possible to overdo the Southgate bashing, but I can't agree that his record is fantastic. The team in 2018 wasn't brilliant, which is probably why he got so much credit for beating some other pretty average teams before playing Croatia. But the players you mention were still in the main starters for Champions League teams, so given the very fortunate route it would still have been a serious failure to not reach the semis. Really, it was a failure not to beat Croatia too, but obviously they were a good team.

 

But from 2020 onwards the squad has on the whole been really good, and how many decent teams have we beaten in that time? Germany at Wembley was a good result, no question. But apart from that?  Scraping past Denmark in extra time with a dodgy penalty is the next best 'scalp'. 

 

I suppose you could say that he's been effective in beating the teams that we should be beating in knockout games. Iceland in 2016 shows that you shouldn't take that as a given. But for a good record you've got to be showing that you're getting the most out of the players you have available, and I don't think you could every really say that about Southgate's England. Not even in 2018. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I think it's possible to overdo the Southgate bashing, but I can't agree that his record is fantastic. The team in 2018 wasn't brilliant, which is probably why he got so much credit for beating some other pretty average teams before playing Croatia. But the players you mention were still in the main starters for Champions League teams, so given the very fortunate route it would still have been a serious failure to not reach the semis. Really, it was a failure not to beat Croatia too, but obviously they were a good team.

 

But from 2020 onwards the squad has on the whole been really good, and how many decent teams have we beaten in that time? Germany at Wembley was a good result, no question. But apart from that?  Scraping past Denmark in extra time with a dodgy penalty is the next best 'scalp'. 

 

I suppose you could say that he's been effective in beating the teams that we should be beating in knockout games. Iceland in 2016 shows that you shouldn't take that as a given. But for a good record you've got to be showing that you're getting the most out of the players you have available, and I don't think you could every really say that about Southgate's England. Not even in 2018. 

We’ve never really had a coherent way of playing for any length of time. We don’t look a well organised, well coached team. I watched Switzerland yesterday and they are exactly what we aren’t, yet we have better players in theory.

[joey_big_nose]

27 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I think it's possible to overdo the Southgate bashing, but I can't agree that his record is fantastic. The team in 2018 wasn't brilliant, which is probably why he got so much credit for beating some other pretty average teams before playing Croatia. But the players you mention were still in the main starters for Champions League teams, so given the very fortunate route it would still have been a serious failure to not reach the semis. Really, it was a failure not to beat Croatia too, but obviously they were a good team.

 

But from 2020 onwards the squad has on the whole been really good, and how many decent teams have we beaten in that time? Germany at Wembley was a good result, no question. But apart from that?  Scraping past Denmark in extra time with a dodgy penalty is the next best 'scalp'. 

 

I suppose you could say that he's been effective in beating the teams that we should be beating in knockout games. Iceland in 2016 shows that you shouldn't take that as a given. But for a good record you've got to be showing that you're getting the most out of the players you have available, and I don't think you could every really say that about Southgate's England. Not even in 2018. 

Hmmm.... I think if we picked a combined Croatia vs England XI in 2018 it would probably be roughly even, and in Modric they had the best individual player in the sides by quite a long way. I think claiming that England  a failure not to win is not at all fair based on the teams. We're a much larger nation population wise, but in terms of who was on the pitch that day it was an even quality game. That Croatia team not only got to the final in 2018 but also came third in 2022, beating Argentina (2018) and Brazil (2022) on the way...

He definitely got the best from players we know from their subsequent careers to not be top international players (Pickford, Maguire, Lingard, Alli, Young, Sterling, Henderson, Trippier), not sure how we could claim otherwise.

Theres a question over if he can get the most out of Bellingham, Rice, Foden etc but we are still in this tournament so he has to solve that today and (hopefully) following games.

[Admiral Nelsen]

25 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Hmmm.... I think if we picked a combined Croatia vs England XI in 2018 it would probably be roughly even, and in Modric they had the best individual player in the sides by quite a long way. I think claiming that England  a failure not to win is not at all fair based on the teams. We're a much larger nation population wise, but in terms of who was on the pitch that day it was an even quality game. That Croatia team not only got to the final in 2018 but also came third in 2022, beating Argentina (2018) and Brazil (2022) on the way...

He definitely got the best from players we know from their subsequent careers to not be top international players (Pickford, Maguire, Lingard, Alli, Young, Sterling, Henderson, Trippier), not sure how we could claim otherwise.

Theres a question over if he can get the most out of Bellingham, Rice, Foden etc but we are still in this tournament so he has to solve that today and (hopefully) following games.

 

Happy to admit that Croatia were a very good side. I still think we should've won after going a goal ahead, but my point is that Southgate's record generally consists of beating the teams we should beat, and struggling as soon as we play someone decent. 

[jim mk2]

Is Declan Rice the problem in this England team? He slows the game down and just shunts the ball backwards and sideways. Teams just sit back until we eventually give the ball away.

[Mattyblue]

Careful with all this lucky talk! 😅

[joey_big_nose]

27 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Is Declan Rice the problem in this England team? He slows the game down and just shunts the ball backwards and sideways. Teams just sit back until we eventually give the ball away.

Hes not good enough on the ball to be the deepest midfield player, he has improved hugely playing advanced of Jorginho in the Arsenal midfield. Hes all about energy and physicality, not spreading the play and incisive passing.

Need an expansive player sitting deeper. I assumed that was the plan with Trent but he was further forward than Rice whenever hes played. Similarly Mainoo has always come on to get beyond Rice in the middle.... Its an issue. I imagine Mainoo will start today but again in the number 8 role...

Still the left side is the number one issue imo. Has to be solved with urgency. Whats frustrating we did look so much better when Gordon and Palmer came on last game but the signs are we will go back to Foden coming inside again.

Edited June 30 by joey_big_nose

[AllRoverAsia]

3 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

Oh I agree with that 100% 

Personally I think they need to remove as much subjectivity from the laws as possible.

Instead, every rule change seems to be adding more scope for officials to interpret things ‘as they see them’

Nail on head.

VAR shows what happened but it's the human interference in rule changes and interpretation that has overcomplicated.

In the case if handball just keep it simple, is it deliberate or not. Cut out the crap.

It may produce more goals and do away with did the ball graze a players fingernail whilst they were running at high speed who, oddly in the view of idiots like Oliver and Atwell, use hands and arms for balance

Edited June 30 by AllRoverAsia

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

Hes not good enough on the ball to be the deepest midfield player, he has improved hugely playing advanced of Jorginho in the Arsenal midfield. Hes all about energy and physicality, not spreading the play and incisive passing.

Need an expansive player sitting deeper. I assumed that was the plan with Trent but he was further forward than Rice whenever hes played. Similarly Manoo has always come on to get beyond Rice in the middle.... Its an issue. I imagine Manoo will start today but again in the number 8 role...

Still the left side is the number one issue imo. Has to be solved with urgency. Whats frustrating we did look so much better when Gordon and Palmer came on last game but the signs are we will go back to Foden coming inside again.

As I've said - drop Kane, play Bellingham up front and Foden off him. Play Palmer / Gordon on the left. 

As for Rice, he's clearly a fantastic player and cleans up A LOT in defence, but no he's not a creative player. Again I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal put in a cheeky bid for him after the summer, with Rice singing his praises. He's the perfect foil. 

Edited June 30 by Exiled_Rover