England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[speeeeeeedie]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Southgates record with England, courtesy of @M_B

• World Cup quarter final
• World Cup semi final
• Two Euro finals, one to be decided 
• First final EVER on foreign soil 

Why do you think we need a change?

I have a good enough memory to remember the endless debates on here about if Rovers should keep or sack Allardyce. Looking back now it should never have been a question. He should never have been let go. 

Southgate is in a different spot as the pressure is so much greater on him but he is on the brink of success again. I think he wants to go. It is taking a toll on him, but he has an affinity to his players which may keep him going. 

This ESPN article is pretty good. It's gives an insight of things the public does not see; ESPN: Southgate seeks redemption

[Forever Blue]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Good to see you're still coming out with the comedy belters.

 

 

Thank you.  I like to educate and entertain in equal measure. 

[Hasta]

51 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I'm on to a loser with this, but Sven's record was unbelievably unfortunate. Out on pens vs Portugal after having a perfectly good winner disallowed. Another exit on pens vs Portugal after outplaying them with 10 men. A narrow loss to the last great Brazil team after a freak goal. Also hugely unfortunate with the timings of injuries to key players in Owen, Rooney, Beckham. 

 

Give him our recent squads and our routes to the latter stages, I'd wager on him doing at least as well. 

I'm with you here.

Sven qualified for every tournament, got out of every group and never lost in a major tournament to a team we were expected to beat. However like Southgate, every game which I felt was 50/50 or worse he lost with the exception of Argentina in the groups in 2002. Had we lost that game we would have been practically eliminated and we won.

That's why I have Southgate and Sven in similar regard, despite the obvious better progression deeper into tournaments by Southgate.

[AAK]

14 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I'm with you here.

Sven qualified for every tournament, got out of every group and never lost in a major tournament to a team we were expected to beat. However like Southgate, every game which I felt was 50/50 or worse he lost with the exception of Argentina in the groups in 2002. Had we lost that game we would have been practically eliminated and we won.

That's why I have Southgate and Sven in similar regard, despite the obvious better progression deeper into tournaments by Southgate.

Practically eliminated? We would have had a task on our hands, however we would have had to beat Nigeria, but would have gone through irrelevant of the Sweden v Arg game, I know we didn't beat Nigeria, but we all know, things change when you HAVE to win. Bit picky I know lol.

Edited July 12 by AAK

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

That's why I have Southgate and Sven in similar regard, despite the obvious better progression deeper into tournaments by Southgate.

You can do that, but then you can't use actual results and success as assessment criteria.

[riverholmes]

Listening to some commentators, I've found the argument quite compelling that England should be, in theory, seen as being as strong as Spain, if not, possibly, more so. The fact they are seen as underdogs is a reflection of poor management. If you consider the players England have and the depth in many areas, they really do have an abundant of riches.

Yamal, after all is a 16 year old, and Nico Williams is a good winger but decent full backs are meant to be able to deal with wingers. If England had Foden, Rice, Bellingham and Kane emulating club form, or even 80% of club form, it would be a different team.  Remember how people were all worried about the defence, pre-tournament, and confident about the forwards. It's as if the desperate under-performance of the attack has been normalised.

As I was hearing from some pundits, other teams would dream of having options like Watkins, Toney, Eze, Palmer, Gordon on the bench. Spain have the technical edge but, with possible better management and performances, England would have an attack to fear. 

Edited July 12 by riverholmes

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, AAK said:

Practically eliminated? We would have had a task on our hands, however we would have had to beat Nigeria, but would have gone through irrelevant of the Sweden v Arg game, I know we didn't beat Nigeria, but we all know, things change when you HAVE to win. Bit picky I know lol.

How so?

Had we lost we would have had 1 point, Argentina 6 points and Sweden 4 points.

It would have been out of our hands.

There was huge pressure on us going into that game.

 

 

Edited July 12 by Hasta

[M_B]

5 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Good to see you're still coming out with the comedy belters.

As for saying Southgate should stay on that is ridiculously premature in advance of tomorrow night's game. He's won nothing at senior level ever and so far has blown great chances against Croatia in the World Cup and Italy in the last Euros.

If we win Sunday night congratulations to him, he'll have proved me wrong that we'd never win anything with him in charge and I guess the FA would give him the option to stay on for the World Cup but for me he should be replaced either way, things have gone very stale this tournament albeit We've lucked our way to this stage.

If we lose again then there should be no question whatsoever he should be replaced - that will be three tournaments wasted with a very good squad who were capable of winning them had the right man been at the helm.

Has he proved you wrong by getting to two finals? 

Edited July 12 by M_B

[chaddyrovers]

I would give Southgate a new 4 year contract whether we win or lose on Sunday. 

 

[USABlue]

Given the euphoria over England playing well for a half plus 15 minutes in the previous game I can see where the we can beat Spain thiughts come from.  In reality I think Spain will embarrass us on Sunday, hope not but I just can not see us defending their incisive passing up front.

  We need a lot more up front than we have shown.  It will never happen but I am of the opinion that Wharton with a Toney or Watkins to run on to his sliderule passes would catch them by total surprise.  Sadly it is a pipe dream.

[RTM08]

Sven got knocked out by a generational Brazil side (who we could have beaten), was robbed in the Euros against Portugal with Campbell's last minute goal and then by 2006 it was starting to go wrong but Portugal were beatable there too. However, all of those opponents were more difficult than anything Southgate has navigated past so far.

For me if we don't win on Sunday I don't see the argument for keeping Southgate and I think the best option for everyone would be a change, but I will concede that if we win it's hard to argue that whilst turgid it hasn't worked. 

I think Spain are beatable and France could have beat them the other night despite not being spectacular themselves, but first half semi-final England need to turn up, not the one from the rest of the tournament.

[jny]

2 hours ago, M_B said:

Has he proved you wrong by getting to two finals? 

This squad could probably get to two finals on its own.

Not saying Southgate is a bad manager, but my god, people are forgetting we've completely winged this (and the other tournaments) through blind luck and dismal football.

We have an embarassment of riches at our disposal (and seemingly solvent in every position now with the emergence of Guehi, Konsa and Branthwaite at CB). We should be playing football that makes other teams afraid.

[Gav]

6 hours ago, speeeeeeedie said:

I have a good enough memory to remember the endless debates on here about if Rovers should keep or sack Allardyce. Looking back now it should never have been a question. He should never have been let go. 

Southgate is in a different spot as the pressure is so much greater on him but he is on the brink of success again. 

It wasn’t lost on me as I was writing the posts earlier Speedie, but I’ve convinced myself you can’t compare club management and International management.

Tournament football is win at all costs, a handful of games, you don’t have to look pretty doing it. Club football needs a little more thought, more entertainment due to sheer number of games over a season. 
 

[M_B]

15 minutes ago, jny said:

This squad could probably get to two finals on its own.

Not saying Southgate is a bad manager, but my god, people are forgetting we've completely winged this (and the other tournaments) through blind luck and dismal football.

We have an embarassment of riches at our disposal (and seemingly solvent in every position now with the emergence of Guehi, Konsa and Branthwaite at CB). We should be playing football that makes other teams afraid.

A lot of people, especially the "experts" on TV and radio have said he's been lucky. There's no shortage of people trying to reduce his management down to luck. 

It's a lot easier to say it's been dismal football and saying it's all down to luck, than admit they were wrong and accept what a brilliant job he's done. 

 

[RTM08]

6 minutes ago, M_B said:

A lot of people, especially the "experts" on TV and radio have said he's been lucky. There's no shortage of people trying to reduce his management down to luck. 

It's a lot easier to say it's been dismal football and saying it's all down to luck, than admit they were wrong and accept what a brilliant job he's done. 

 

99/100 times Bellingham misses that bicycle kick and England are out in the RO16 with a barely a shot on target across 4 games. You need luck in tournaments and we've definitely had a decent chunk so far.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

31 minutes ago, M_B said:

A lot of people, especially the "experts" on TV and radio have said he's been lucky. There's no shortage of people trying to reduce his management down to luck. 

It's a lot easier to say it's been dismal football and saying it's all down to luck, than admit they were wrong and accept what a brilliant job he's done. 

 

Yeah, the fans were throwing their coffee cups at him as a token of appreciation no doubt.

[M_B]

28 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yeah, the fans were throwing their coffee cups at him as a token of appreciation no doubt.

No doubt. 

Brilliant game of rugby league that, even though Saints lost. 

[47er]

9 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

If we lose again then there should be no question whatsoever he should be replaced - that will be three tournaments wasted with a very good squad who were capable of winning them had the right man been at the helm.

TBF Spain have looked the best side in the tournament since Day 1.

We are not favourites to win this game.

 

[AAK]

9 hours ago, Hasta said:

How so?

Had we lost we would have had 1 point, Argentina 6 points and Sweden 4 points.

It would have been out of our hands.

There was huge pressure on us going into that game.

 

 

Yes, but you're saying "if we'd lost" figure it out pal

[Hasta]

5 hours ago, AAK said:

Yes, but you're saying "if we'd lost" figure it out pal

I've re-read it about 10 times and I genuinely don't know what you mean. I think you've misread what I've said somewhere.

All I've said is "if we had lost to Argentina in the group stage we would have been practically eliminated".

 

It's a fact. The table had we lost would have been:

Argentina P2 Pts 6

Sweden P2 Pts 4

England P2 Pts 1

Nigeria P2 Pts 0

 

You said we wouldn't have been practically eliminated as beating Nigeria in the final game would have got us through regardless of the SWE /ARG result, which is simply not true.

Edited July 13 by Hasta

[roverandout]

14 hours ago, jny said:

This squad could probably get to two finals on its own.

Not saying Southgate is a bad manager, but my god, people are forgetting we've completely winged this (and the other tournaments) through blind luck and dismal football.

We have an embarassment of riches at our disposal (and seemingly solvent in every position now with the emergence of Guehi, Konsa and Branthwaite at CB). We should be playing football that makes other teams afraid.

I think the game against France at the last world cup shows that Southgate is capable of playing on the front foot. I think he's realised our defence is very good and the last couple of games has allowed us to play with more freedom 

[47er]

I'm salivating at the thought of this squad in the next World Cup and so many likely to be available in the next Euros.

Including of course our own Adam Wharton.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

17 hours ago, RTM08 said:

99/100 times Bellingham misses that bicycle kick and England are out in the RO16 with a barely a shot on target across 4 games. You need luck in tournaments and we've definitely had a decent chunk so far.

Absolutely spot on. 

[Exiled_Rover]

16 hours ago, M_B said:

No doubt. 

Brilliant game of rugby league that, even though Saints lost. 

Especially because Saints lost.

[RevidgeBlue]

17 hours ago, jny said:

This squad could probably get to two finals on its own.

Not saying Southgate is a bad manager, but my god, people are forgetting we've completely winged this (and the other tournaments) through blind luck and dismal football.

We have an embarassment of riches at our disposal (and seemingly solvent in every position now with the emergence of Guehi, Konsa and Branthwaite at CB). We should be playing football that makes other teams afraid.

This is spot on as well. All that said we're down to a sudden death game, we have an extremely talented squad of players, and as the old cliche goes "Anything can happen in a one off game".

As with previous tournaments it may come down to fine margins and a lot will probably depend on how proactive Southgate is and how good  his in game management is on the night.