England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[Lancaster Rover]

The coaching set up is far superior in Spain than it is to the UK. Grassroots clubs have incredibly highly qualified coaches and gaining your B and C license is a matter of course over there. Add in the availability of good quality artificial pitches, the use of Futsal alongside football makes for even better technical development. 

 

In the Uk providing you do the FA Safeguarding and the Playermaker (unfailable course) you can call yourself a coach and run several teams.

[Upside Down]

2 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Or maybe start a CM than can pass the fucking ball between the lines.

I think Rice is a fantastic firefighter, but he's not a creative force and Mainoo was a passenger again.

He played Mainoo (Man Utd) who was shit and refused to play Wharton (Palace) who is lightyears ahead of him.

Same old story with England, the players from the 'big clubs' walk into the team ahead of far superior players who come from smaller clubs. Funnily enough it always ends in total failure.

[Exiled_Rover]

11 minutes ago, Lancaster Rover said:

The coaching set up is far superior in Spain than it is to the UK. Grassroots clubs have incredibly highly qualified coaches and gaining your B and C license is a matter of course over there. Add in the availability of good quality artificial pitches, the use of Futsal alongside football makes for even better technical development. 

 

In the Uk providing you do the FA Safeguarding and the Playermaker (unfailable course) you can call yourself a coach and run several teams.

We literally have better players than Spain (bar Rodri).

That excuse died a death a few years ago. Any talented player is in an Academy by 8 years old.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Or maybe start a CM than can pass the fucking ball between the lines.

I think Rice is a fantastic firefighter, but he's not a creative force and Mainoo was a passenger again.

It was crying out for Wharton and he never got a kick. I like Rice a lot but he’s been really poor all through this tournament . Another one being picked game in game out in the hope that something changes. As for Harry Kane, there used to be a player in my works team that had a bad back. Honest truth, he used to play in a corset ! We all used to rib him mercilessly when he was putting it on. Kane reminded me of him last night. He couldn’t get his feet off the ground ! We were long balling it and every one was a free header for the Spanish centre halves. As somebody on the panel said - they’ve got the cigars out and they’re sat in the arm chairs.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

We literally have better players than Spain (bar Rodri).

That excuse died a death a few years ago. Any talented player is in an Academy by 8 years old.

The point I’m making is the number of kids playing football in the UK is massively less than it was years. It’s like a pyramid, the bigger the base the more chance you have of really good players getting to the top.

[KentExile]

6 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It was crying out for Wharton and he never got a kick. I like Rice a lot but he’s been really poor all through this tournament . Another one being picked game in game out in the hope that something changes. As for Harry Kane, there used to be a player in my works team that had a bad back. Honest truth, he used to play in a corset ! We all used to rib him mercilessly when he was putting it on. Kane reminded me of him last night. He couldn’t get his feet off the ground ! We were long balling it and every one was a free header for the Spanish centre halves. As somebody on the panel said - they’ve got the cigars out and they’re sat in the arm chairs.

Rice was poor mainly because he was played as the more defensive midfielder.  Rice is a box to box midfielder.  Playing Wharton alongside Rice would have allowed both players to do what they do best and I am sure would have resulted in much better team performances

[riverholmes]

15 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It was crying out for Wharton and he never got a kick. I like Rice a lot but he’s been really poor all through this tournament . Another one being picked game in game out in the hope that something changes. As for Harry Kane, there used to be a player in my works team that had a bad back. Honest truth, he used to play in a corset ! We all used to rib him mercilessly when he was putting it on. Kane reminded me of him last night. He couldn’t get his feet off the ground ! We were long balling it and every one was a free header for the Spanish centre halves. As somebody on the panel said - they’ve got the cigars out and they’re sat in the arm chairs.

I think one of the warning signs was when Southgate selected Wharton. It suggested that the intense public scrutiny was getting to him, I think, because it was out of character for a defensive-minded, cautious manager. So, it turned out that Wharton would not play. Even if Rice had been injured, either Trent or Gallagher would've come in.

Personally, I don't think this tournament was about individuals in the England team. It was a lack of an attacking strategy and set-up. The players who were fielded were good enough to put on a show, but they never did.

Even an England 2XI, albeit, very inexperienced, would probably have done pretty ok in the tournament, if set-up correctly:

Ramsdale, Trent, Konsa, Dunk, Eze, Gordon, Gallagher, Wharton, Bowen, Palmer, Watkins

 

Edited July 15 by riverholmes

[joey_big_nose]

22 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

We literally have better players than Spain (bar Rodri).

That excuse died a death a few years ago. Any talented player is in an Academy by 8 years old.

Really dont think thats true, Spain have players as good as ours. Theyve consistently been excellent through the tournament. The team of the tournament will be mostly Spanish players.

The Spanish manager I think might pick Walker, Bellingham and Stones from our squad into his XI but thats it imo. Kane wasnt fit and he needed the pressing Kane cant do anyway. No way is he taking Rice, Foden, Saka over his options.

Im not saying England have bad players but saying we have better players than Spain is daft.

[Lancaster Rover]

26 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

We literally have better players than Spain (bar Rodri).

That excuse died a death a few years ago. Any talented player is in an Academy by 8 years old.

Having worked in academies for over 10 years the hoovering up of pre-academy 'talent' is now being identified as one one of the key problems, with the pre-academy selection in England being so heavily based on biological age. Meaning the vast majority of the players signed at u9 are September - December births with biological ages up to 12 months ahead. There are then a huge amount of technically gifted players left in grassroots football receiving appalling coaching, on terrible pitches with a playing style that is based on winning, again resulting in 'big lads' being pushed to the front.

Also, we don't have better players than Spain in my opinion. There is just a huge amount of visibility bias towards players we see week in week out. Before the competition Fabian Ruiz was being hailed as a water carrier, he's arguably been the player of the tournament. The same can be said across the Spanish team.

Thats before even mentioning their depth, missing Pedri, Gavi, Balde, Pau Cubarsi. You look beyond Englands starting eleven and it's Conor Gallagher who with the greatest respect is a decent PL player but nowhere near being an elite CM, Zubamendi who is a 3rd choice rotation is far superior.

Edited July 15 by Lancaster Rover

[Exiled_Rover]

20 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The point I’m making is the number of kids playing football in the UK is massively less than it was years. It’s like a pyramid, the bigger the base the more chance you have of really good players getting to the top.

There clearly aren't.

The only possible point you've made is that their pub teams will be better than our pub teams.

[RoverDom]

Big Southgate fan and happy with everything he has done for England. I was fairly sure before the tournament that id want this to be his last tournament win or lose and I do think it's time for a change. 

It's got to be the right appointment though cos we could easily get it wrong and we could be back to the decade pre-gareth longing for some turgid football to get us somewhere in a tournament. 

When gareth got the job we were defensively fragile and his pragmatic brand was maybe what we needed. I think in stones and guehi we've got a good platform and we've got the shoots of a good midfield coming through, rice, mainoo and Wharton. Maybe its time for someone with more attacking prowes to build on the platform built by Gareth. 

Going forward two things need solved for me. Right back will become a problem with walker and tripper getting on a bit, taa not being a decent defender and James being injured all the time. The simple answer is a new manager might get Ben white to play again, or we play 3 at the back with taa as wing back. Striker, we need a plan for if Kane isn't fit, he's not pivitol to the team now and there are others who can carry and lead the team so if he's not fit dont play him.  

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I'm annoyed and angry with certain people keep belittling Southgate's achievements with this utter and complete nonsense that we have favourable games or luck of draws in competitions. It's really annoying like we control it we don't. the draw is the draw. Simple as. Still has to perform on the pitch and win

But performed better than 6 former managers before him like Hoddle, Keegan, Sven, McClaren, Capello and Hodgson. 

We dont control the draw, thats what makes it luck. Variables outside of our control falling in our favour.

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I seen last night some people suggesting Rio Ferdinand for the England job. 

Lineker suggested Lampard for the job the other day  

Appointing Lee Carsley would be similar move to what Spain did after the world cup appointing their under 21 manager as the national manager. 

I can't see Howe or O'Neil leaving their PL job. Potter is the odds on favourite for the job right now with the bookies

I would stick with Southgate if he wants to continue. He has done a great job and he deserves everyone respect for the job he has done

Ferdinand is even more a hilarious suggestion than Lampard 😂 the BBC guys seemingly have each others back. Why not Shearer?

If these are the candidates then lets not even enter such would be the embarassment.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

23 minutes ago, KentExile said:

Rice was poor mainly because he was played as the more defensive midfielder.  Rice is a box to box midfielder.  Playing Wharton alongside Rice would have allowed both players to do what they do best and I am sure would have resulted in much better team performances

The only time we’ve looked good recently was when Wharton came on to partner Rice. What was it 38 out of 38 completed passes ? Last night half of our passes went astray.

Edited July 15 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[joey_big_nose]

I think England are going to continue to struggle whoever is appointed... How does he fit together Belligham, Foden, Palmer and Kane? Cant drop them as if he does gets bollocked for not picking the best players by media and fans and the slightest adverse performance causing a epic meltdown, but if we play them we end up with a team with four number 10s and no width or proper striker.

Its Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes all over again.... 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

5 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Really dont think thats true, Spain have players as good as ours. Theyve consistently been excellent through the tournament. The team of the tournament will be mostly Spanish players.

The Spanish manager I think might pick Walker, Bellingham and Stones from our squad into his XI but thats it imo. Kane wasnt fit and he needed the pressing Kane cant do anyway. No way is he taking Rice, Foden, Saka over his options.

Im not saying England have bad players but saying we have better players than Spain is daft.

I don’t know how anyone can watch that game last night and say we have better players. Our close control and passing was shown up last night. I lost count of how many times an England player tried to control the ball only to see it bounce 2 or 3 yards away.

[Herbie6590]

2 hours ago, arbitro said:

And that is probably the main difference Ian. Foden and Bellingham have been excellent for their respective clubs last season but both have real quality alongside them like De Bruyne, Silva, Viniscius, Kroos and many more. I don't really see the same quality in many England players, just more functional players and up against a side like Spain with their quality it shows.

I like Southgate. He seems a really decent, likeable bloke and if he wants a new deal he could get one. Personally I don't think he will accept one though. At times during this tournament he has looked haggard and it seems to me that the criticism has really taken its toll on him and the weight of expectation has been a real burden. If I was advising him it would be to leave, have a long break and then look to get back into club management.

If I was him I’d be looking for a directorial role where he can set strategic direction, establish a culture & drive forward a vision. The team probably needs a more analytical mind, someone capable of realising what’s happening & having some options up his sleeve to affect the game. 
He’s done a great job on the whole, think back to McClaren, Capello & Hodgson; but it all has a last days of the regime feel to it now. 

[Lancaster Rover]

3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I don’t know how anyone can watch that game last night and say we have better players. Our close control and passing was shown up last night. I lost count of how many times an England player tried to control the ball only to see it bounce 2 or 3 yards away.

It’s been the same all tournament, so many are totally incapable of taking the ball on the half turn especially in congested areas. Last night should have been a humbling experience for English football that laid bare the huge golf in technical ability of executing fundamentals of the game. None of which is down to Southgate, that’s a much wider problem 

[Lancaster Rover]

2 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

If I was him I’d be looking for a directorial role where he can set strategic direction, establish a culture & drive forward a vision. The team probably needs a more analytical mind, someone capable of realising what’s happening & having some options up his sleeve to affect the game. 
He’s done a great job on the whole, think back to McClaren, Capello & Hodgson; but it all has a last days of the regime feel to it now. 

To be fair to Southgate, he did that role alongside Howard Wilkinson and others 10 or so years ago. Whilst they’ve made strides with St. George’s Park and coach development we’re still a million miles behind many of our European neighbours. 

[Bohinen1983]

I stand by what I said at the beginning of the tournament. I think SOME of our players are very over-rated.  

Rice and Gallagher were dreadful..

Kane's legs have gone,  I'd say even as an impact sub he has absolutely no use at all if that's his physical state.

Our system either required a high press- something Kane couldn't do or pace to counter-attack if we were inviting teams onto us..

Gordon down one side would have helped massively with a midfielder that didn't take 28 touches before looking for a pass would have supplemented that really well (Wharton).

Palmer made an impact every single game despite his paltry game time, why not start him?

Walker was horrific, Trent is sat on the bench..

In Southgate's defence, he did make some very brave calls in his selection. Lets not forget who he left at home, Grealish, Rashford etc.  

I don't dislike him, I do think eventually he'll deliver, in fact, I still think he's over delivering with the current crop. 

A few tweaks, some pace out wide- Wharton in the middle, Trent at wingback, a world class forward and ball carrying centre mid and I think we'd be there..  

Southgate out? I'm not sure.  This squad, whilst being 'good' isn't brilliant.  He makes good calls and bad calls but he's far superior to Sven and Cappello...   

I think we'd be looking at a Potter, Howe type as his successor.

I'd prefer a Mournihio or Klopp...

Anyway, despite the abject performances, that's another final in the bag- well done boys.
 

[Blow-in]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Stayed out of this thread for a while, come back to see that … folk still don’t understand the concept of luck/chance.

Never change brfcs 😅

 

I think most people understand it, but there is a vocal minority that only ever sees what they want to see and blindly follow club and country no matter what happens. 

When Southgate is gone and the new man is in charge, regardless of who it is (unless they are foreign) the new guy will be the best.

Does carsley count as a foreign manager by the way? 🤔😜

Edited July 15 by Blow-in

[joey_big_nose]

18 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

If I was him I’d be looking for a directorial role where he can set strategic direction, establish a culture & drive forward a vision. The team probably needs a more analytical mind, someone capable of realising what’s happening & having some options up his sleeve to affect the game. 
He’s done a great job on the whole, think back to McClaren, Capello & Hodgson; but it all has a last days of the regime feel to it now. 

I am a big Southgate fan, and think he's unarguably England's second best ever manager.... but if the idea is we need a new philosophy and identity etc surely putting him in a director would be the wrong choice? If we are going to change (and I think  we should) then we need to commit to the change? Hanging onto Southgate in whatever role would not make sense imo.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I'm annoyed and angry with certain people keep belittling Southgate's achievements with this utter and complete nonsense that we have favourable games or luck of draws in competitions. It's really annoying like we control it we don't. the draw is the draw. Simple as. Still has to perform on the pitch and win

But performed better than 6 former managers before him like Hoddle, Keegan, Sven, McClaren, Capello and Hodgson. 

If you’re measuring ‘better’ simply by how far we progressed, you have to take into consideration the squads at their disposal and standard of opposition.

Sven’s teams faced (prime) Brazil and Portugal twice in earlier stages of tournaments.

Southgate’s lost to Croatia, Belgium (x2), Italy, France and now Spain.

Whilst Southgate has undoubtedly improved us since the Iceland debacle, we’re still unable to beat decent teams, regardless of when we encounter them.

Edited July 15 by magicalmortensleftpeg

[ABBEY]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

But performed better than 6 former managers before him like Hoddle, Keegan, Sven, McClaren, Capello and Hodgson. 

AND WON EXACTLY SAME AS THE 6 YOU MENTION.  UTTER FAILURE

SUMS HAPPY CLAPPERS UP... HAPPY EVEN WITH LOSING....  

[Blow-in]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I understand what you are saying about Southgate. I agree Carsley would be the most sensible appointment for us to make. 

 

Thought you didn't want a foreign coach? 😜

[Gav]

7 minutes ago, Blow-in said:

Thought you didn't want a foreign coach? 😜

He was born here I believe, but qualified for Ireland having had a pint of Guinness  once. He’s taking the same route as Southgate by being in charge of U21’s, but he doesn’t have the playing pedigree like Southgate has.

Hardly inspiring is it? Keep Southgate for me if Carsley is the alternative.