[Archived] Will You Show The Fla A Yellow Card?

[Eddie]

We've had this come up a couple of times, it would be much easier if you just dragged up the previous discussion on the topic.

[roversWASmylife]

I've signed the petition.

And all the best with it Amanda.

[Amanda]

Eddie - sorry! Was doing the rounds of all the sites at work and didn't have much time to find previous threads and tag on the end of those.

Rovers - thanks for your support and all the other Blackburn supporters who have already joined us.

Please, keep spreading the word to fellow supporters, friends, family and colleagues.

A recent investigation showed up the FLA as one of 9 Government quangos that are viewed to be a complete waste of money and with an election looming and an ever larger membership of SUSD hopefully there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

None of us expected to force change over night but the more supporters who back as the stronger we'll become.

[Eddie]

Oh it's not a problem for me, I was thinking more for you. As if you are looking to gather information many might not reply to this topic as they have already done so.

[Amanda]

SO WHY CAN’T WE STAND UP?

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

Every week across the country fans are being ejected or even banned for simply standing up to support their team. Away allocations have been cut, parts of grounds are under threat of closure, and there is increasing conflict with stewards.

Stand Up Sit Down have met with clubs, local authorities, safety officers, football authorities and the FLA, but have found very few people who really consider this a safety issue. We are now left wondering just why such efforts are being made to prevent supporters standing.

Safety

The FLA say that the movements that standing spectators make to follow play could lead to them falling and causing a cascade effect, injuring those in front. SUSD consider that whilst there may be some risk of falls in steep upper tiers, we simply cannot envisage such an effect in areas of relatively low gradient, which are present in virtually every ground. This is not just the view of supporters, but also some clubs, safety officers and local authorities.

A senior council official, who is threatening his local club with closing part of their ground, told us that he can see no safety problems with standing in that area. At their conference last year the gentleman charged by the Core Cities Group of Local Authorities to deal with persistent standing, was shouted down by football club safety officers, angry at his ridiculous arguments. He later stated that a majority of Football Safety Officers Association members seem not to consider persistent standing as a safety issue.

The FSOA National Administrator said that they are opposed to supporters being permitted to stand within football stadia during passage of play, and their policy is to support the FLA document ‘Standing in Seated Areas at Football Grounds’. He noted however that there is a difference of view within the FSOA, but that a number of Safety Officers support the policy. It appears therefore that the majority don’t.

The FLA say that standing supporters take up more room so spread into aisles, but our experience is that this is rare and easily prevented. We believe that there is less risk of injury when a goal celebration is started from the standing position, a view unanimously backed by comments from numerous SUSD members, but the FLA say the opposite.

The Government’s standard reply to supporters writing in support of SUSD’s proposals states that there are more injuries at grounds with standing than in all seater stadia. This is misleading as the relevant figures would be injuries from standing in seated areas compared to sitting, but the FLA say these are not available. We know of one major Premiership ground where the injury rate is the same whether supporters sit for a major fixture or stand for a lesser match. Even in grounds with terracing the average injury rate is only 1 in 20,732 and the FLA admit that 70% of these are illness or pre-existing injures.

If safety really is a concern, why don’t clubs minimise the risk wherever possible? Where away allocations have been cut, why are supporters packed into a smaller section, surrounded by empty seats, rather than taking the opportunity to reduce spectator density and hence the safety ‘risk’.

Lord Taylor said that standing accommodation is not intrinsically unsafe. His report did not specifically cover the issue of standing in seated areas, but said that he expected that after a period of time supporters would get used to sitting. So how well did he understand us?

Every year in London alone an average of 70 passengers are seriously injured and two killed in accidents related to standing on buses. The Health & Safety Executive says that standing on trains is not a safety issue. Meanwhile the FLA are determined to stop standing in even lower tiers of football grounds. Is this objective safety assessment or convenience? It would cost billions to provide seats for all bus and train passengers, but football clubs had to pay to alter their grounds, and of course we know the Government don’t want us to stand.

Inconsistencies

The most dangerous place for standing is steep upper tiers, so why are away fans often allocated these, whilst the safer lower tier is empty?

At QPR away supporters in the upper tier have to stand in order to see the part of the goal. SUSD suggested that the pitch is moved forward to improve sightlines, but QPR showed little interest. We wrote to Hammersmith & Fulham Council, who said they would ‘observe the safety implications of standing in the School Upper’, adding that ‘any action however will need to be balanced against what is reasonably practical to achieve, given the stand is over 25 years old.' They didn’t explain why the age of the stand is relevant to moving the pitch forward.

So in some grounds supporters are being ejected from gently sloping lower tiers, which are under threat of closure. In some standing is largely ignored, but in others the club choose not to take simple action to prevent standing in more dangerous upper tiers. Does safety not demand consistency?

We asked the FLA why spectators can stand at rock concerts held in football grounds. They said firstly that the action is in one place, so there is less chance of toppling over in straining to follow it, and secondly that those attending music events are a different ‘profile’ from football supporters. Do they really think rock fans stand quietly in front of their seats?

If safety is paramount, why did the FLA wait until last year to take serious action? What has prompted the recent clamp down on standing? We have seen no evidence to suggest that the safety risk has changed, so is there another reason?

The FLA

The FLA was charged to monitor local authorities’ oversight of spectator safety at English and Welsh football grounds, and ensure through a licensing system that these grounds became all seated. In 1992 the Government decided to allow clubs in the lower two divisions to retain standing accommodation, however if a club is relegated back into a lower division, or if it builds a new ground, it cannot have standing areas. All seating by stealth?

The FLA now appears to have broadened its remit, to include comfort and security of supporters as well as safety. It seems that they have to resort to using every argument against standing, no matter how weak. Is it right that a body who don’t even agree that a significant proportion of supporters want to stand should have such influence over the way we watch our game?

A recent report by 'The Efficiency in Government Unit' claimed that many quangos could be merged or abolished without anyone noticing a significant difference and included the FLA, along with such bodies as the Potato Council, in a list of the most useless quangos. Do we still need the FLA?

Crowd Control & Customer Care

How relevant is the argument that allowing supporters to stand will lead to crowd trouble? Any disorder will almost certainly occur at a time of controversy or excitement, when supporters would be expected to be standing. A ground regulation banning standing is hardly likely to stop anyone who is sufficiently agitated as to cause trouble from getting out of their seat.

Those who are unable or prefer not to stand, should not have their view blocked by others, however rather than a justification for making all supporters sit, this is a major reason for providing separate areas for everyone to watch the game as they wish.

Debate

There appears to be reluctance for many parties to participate in an open debate on standing. Despite devoting considerable time to SUSD, the FLA are clearly tired of what they consider are the same old arguments. Few clubs have been prepared to talk openly, and whilst several have publicly stated support for standing areas, others have told us that they support our aims but cannot allow this to be quoted.

Premiership clubs discussed our letter at a meeting and decided not to reply. The Premier and Football Leagues did not want us to make public what was said when we met. One club made a public statement in support of our proposals, but then wrote to us with a far more guarded opinion. It is almost as if there is a conspiracy not to allow public debate, as this would highlight the weakness of the case against standing.

Summary

Stand Up Sit Down proposes the simple solution that in all seater stadia, at least one area of each ground is selected where supporters would be permitted to stand safely in front of their seats. It is clear that supporters will continue to stand, as they have since the Taylor Report, so by allocating only the most suitable areas, our proposals would actually improve safety.

The deeper we dig the more it seems that a total ban on standing cannot be justified on the grounds of safety, crowd control or customer care. Lessons have been learned from Hillsborough, and major steps taken to improve our safety, but a total ban on standing is simply not necessary or indeed workable. So why is there such reluctance even for an open debate on the issue? Is the issue safety or social engineering?

Is there a hidden agenda to move the game away from its working class routes and fill our grounds with middle class fans who will buy the merchandise, clap quietly in their seats, join in with the orchestrated singing over the PA, but disappear as soon as football stops being trendy?

Peter Caton

Stand Up Sit Down

Note – We do not wish to misrepresent the views of the FLA and full notes of our meeting stating the views of SUSD and the FLA can be read on our website www.standupsitdown.co.uk

[den]

Forgive me for not reading the entire post Amanda, but just to take you up on one, but important point.

You say standing in front of a seat is not dangerous. If you've ever been pushed from behind, while standing up, you will know that it's VERY dangerous. You don't have time to move your feet, so you fall over the front seat. How or where you land is purely down to luck. One thing for sure, you can easily break a leg - or worse.

The debate about standing areas is a valid one [although I wouldn't want that], but you're misguided about the standing in front of the seats argument.

[Flopsy]

just being picky but could you right down what all the Acryonms mean - can guess at some but not others

Also Standing should only be allowed in areas especially designed for safe terracing.

[Al]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

[American]

Forgive me for not reading the entire post Amanda, but just to take you up on one, but important point.

You say standing in front of a seat is not dangerous. If you've ever been pushed from behind, while standing up, you will know that it's VERY dangerous. You don't have time to move your feet, so you fall over the front seat. How or where you land is purely down to luck. One thing for sure, you can easily break a leg - or worse.

The debate about standing areas is a valid one [although I wouldn't want that], but you're misguided about the standing in front of the seats argument.

We do it over here at concerts and sporting events all of the time. Harder to reach you to be pushed over. If anything, standing in front of a seat is safer, as it stops the "crowd push" that you see happen.

The only instances of crowd injuries/deaths over here that I know of were because of "festival" standing, i.e. no seats to stand in front of.

Heck, you can be hit by a scoreboard beam, but they haven't banned those (yet).

[den]

Forgive me for not reading the entire post Amanda, but just to take you up on one, but important point.

You say standing in front of a seat is not dangerous. If you've ever been pushed from behind, while standing up, you will know that it's VERY dangerous. You don't have time to move your feet, so you fall over the front seat. How or where you land is purely down to luck. One thing for sure, you can easily break a leg - or worse.

The debate about standing areas is a valid one [although I wouldn't want that], but you're misguided about the standing in front of the seats argument.

We do it over here at concerts and sporting events all of the time. Harder to reach you to be pushed over. If anything, standing in front of a seat is safer, as it stops the "crowd push" that you see happen.

The only instances of crowd injuries/deaths over here that I know of were because of "festival" standing, i.e. no seats to stand in front of.

Heck, you can be hit by a scoreboard beam, but they haven't banned those (yet).

I've been pushed from behind into the front seats - believe me, it hurts.

"Heck, you can be hit by a scoreboard beam, but they haven't banned those (yet)."

You've got a great memory. You knew it was me below that?

[American]

Lucky coincidence! (But I do remember the incident, just not that it was you.)

Oh, and imagine that the seat hadn't been there to stop you, you'd have either fallen into someone(s) and knocked them over, or fallen onto your face.

Edited March 11, 2005 by American

[streakyb]

Oh, and imagine that the seat hadn't been there to stop you, you'd have either fallen into someone(s) and knocked them over, or fallen onto your face.

No, because you would have somehwere to stumble and the person infront would be closer soyou would stop before you have buil up mnomentum. At least that is what I have found when I have been on terracing at lower league clubs.

[American]

I can give you tons of examples of serious injuries/deaths with open area standing. Can anyone give me one with standing in front of seats?

[CAPT KAYOS]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

No it hasn't AL

It is quite clear from responses posted on this MB and others that people are automatically reading into things, and thinking that what people are campaigning for is to bring standing back completely.

What is not happening is the authorities to which very good workable safe ideas/concepts have been proposed and reported for and against arguments are being totally cast aside the without looking into the matter of what I would say 50% of football supporters are wanting back - safe areas where people can stand.

I repeat - SAFE AREAS where people can, if they want to stand up without hassle from other fans, stewards, police etc

This is not meaning, bring back terracing which so many people appear to be reading into the campaign without listening to or reading the proposals and research that have gone into it by the people involved.

Edited March 11, 2005 by CAPT KAYOS

[Al]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

No it hasn't AL

YES IT HAS!

I have no objection to separate standing areas but reaping up all the boring arguments on this board again will achieve nothing.

We have no influence with the powers that be whatsoever.

[streakyb]

I have no objection to separate standing areas but reaping up all the boring arguments on this board again will achieve nothing.

We have no influence with the powers that be whatsoever.

If people want to debate it, let them. If you find it boring, don't read the thread.

[GiddyGoat]

I can give you tons of examples of serious injuries/deaths with open area standing. Can anyone give me one with standing in front of seats?

Ellis Park Jo-burgh 2001 43 killed and hundreds injured. Kaizer Chiefs v Orlando Pirates

When people were knocked off their chairs, others dropped on top of them or stomped over their bodies in a desperate attempt to save themselves. I’ll never forget this one guy pinned to the floor below me, crying out for me to pull him up to safety as I was being shoved around like a rag doll. Bloodcurdling screams came out of his mouth as he begged, “Help me! Help me!” Even then I was sure he was doomed. I didn’t have the strength to fight against the fury of human bodies. I couldn’t do anything. I knew if I bent over I’d be overrun by the stampede of frightened people.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

No it hasn't AL

We have no influence with the powers that be whatsoever.

Not if people don't make a stand (pardon the pun) and air opinions and views.

This Campaign is to make people aware that there are certain groups at least trying to bring something back to the game that is clearly missed - by constantly updating on the situation at least people get an understanding what the problems are and if any progression is being made or whether it is a closed book.

The Government is not giving up on its terroism 'laws' even though it keeps getting rejected by the Lords - eventually they will get their way - no reason why the fans can't get theirs on this issue.

[Al]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

No it hasn't AL

We have no influence with the powers that be whatsoever.

Not if people don't make a stand (pardon the pun) and air opinions and views.

This Campaign is to make people aware that there are certain groups at least trying to bring something back to the game that is clearly missed - by constantly updating on the situation at least people get an understanding what the problems are and if any progression is being made or whether it is a closed book.

The Government is not giving up on its terroism 'laws' even though it keeps getting rejected by the Lords - eventually they will get their way - no reason why the fans can't get theirs on this issue.

Yaaawn. ZZZZzzzzz.

[stuwilky]

Not again please. This subject has been done to death.

No it hasn't AL

YES IT HAS!

I have no objection to separate standing areas but reaping up all the boring arguments on this board again will achieve nothing.

We have no influence with the powers that be whatsoever.

Of course we do.

[streakyb]

Yaaawn. ZZZZzzzzz.

You still reading this thread? You must obviously not find it boring if you keep reading the new posts.

Fully agree with Captain Kayos on this one. If you feel something needs to/should change then you need to continue in active debate to try and get a change.

[broadsword]

Agree with Al, it's just the same stuff over and over again, and there's nothing wrong with saying so.

This government hasn't got a clue about sport, I really cannot see anything happening.

[CAPT KAYOS]

This government hasn't got a clue about sport

Misquote Bryan

The Government hasn't got a clue about anything

Simple as Al , if you find it boring don't bother reading and spouting your defeatist thoughts zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................

[andy82]

I find it odd that Bayerns new Allianz-Arena will have safe terracing, yet the premier league will not give a thought to introduce this in England. Its possible to change it to seats if necessary as well.

[American]

I can give you tons of examples of serious injuries/deaths with open area standing. Can anyone give me one with standing in front of seats?

Ellis Park Jo-burgh 2001 43 killed and hundreds injured. Kaizer Chiefs v Orlando Pirates

When people were knocked off their chairs, others dropped on top of them or stomped over their bodies in a desperate attempt to save themselves. I’ll never forget this one guy pinned to the floor below me, crying out for me to pull him up to safety as I was being shoved around like a rag doll. Bloodcurdling screams came out of his mouth as he begged, “Help me! Help me!” Even then I was sure he was doomed. I didn’t have the strength to fight against the fury of human bodies. I couldn’t do anything. I knew if I bent over I’d be overrun by the stampede of frightened people.

From the looks of it, 2 things were different. First, it looks as if people were standing on the chairs and second, it looks as if they were removable folding chairs, which is far different from standing in front of a chair bolted into the concrete.