I am not even convinced that it is a case of bottling it when we get near the play offs, I am just not convinced that the current manager is capable (with this squad) of picking up points with the consistency of a top 6 team. The style of play and performance levels is perhaps not as straightforward as it seems, not until it does actually start producing the results that many have understandably taken hope from that it will. I definitely have been entertained at times this season and that of course is exciting, I am not advocating a complete swing and resorting to direct football (not that I am pompous enough to consider that any less acceptable, we just dont have the personnel) but equally I do wonder if similar results with a further strengthened side may show that our current style isnt the most effective in its current form. Maybe the current style leaves us exposed on transition and highlights defensive flaws that still havent been resolved? Maybe there is a naivety against the better teams which is leaving us exposed? The best teams tend to maximise set pieces for example, ours are absolutely dismal with often ineffective routines and a manager who admitted last week that he doesnt get involved and leaves it to his staff. So I am unconvinced if the results will come and indeed maybe even though we think we are "playing better," it is style over substance and deceiving us that we "deserve" and will get more than is actually true.

Your desperation to paint the fanbase as overly negative is impeding on any logic. The consistent argument against Mowbray is that he has has never gotten us into that top 6 reckoning, so now to imply that if we did finally manage to push on that next step, that people would then adapt their criticisms to downplay that is totally without evidence. I may be wrong but you have in the past been critical of the manager so I am unsure why you are now resorting to painting any criticism to be unreasonable, backed up with made up hypothetical arguments.

One of the main problems as well is that the likelihood is that by the time they return, we may have a couple more injuries. The idea of a fully fit squad is a fanciful one at the best of times, never mind in an intense 2 games per week schedule with the added risk of isolation etc. With Dack as well, he missed half of last season and will miss half of this so to compare, its essentially like for like!

I just cant escape this constant and potentially never ending cycle of a few more games, one more season, we continuously wait for something to fall into place whilst consistently lounging in mid table and never making even a temporary push into the top 6. The performances are to me immaterial, ideally we would play beautiful football but its not important compared to results. The players are better yet the results are the same, maybe the style is only further highlighting and exposing our weaknesses? My point is more that he has a better squad than he has done prior in regards to a few signings being notable upgrades yet he is still picking up points at an identical rate. Its not a flippant, sudden call after a couple of losses, it is based on the whole season, and a continuous inability to really put ourselves into a genuine top 6 position. I would argue that using flawed examples of teams that have gone on late surges, referring to those who have questioned the managers future as fickle based on a couple of results and indeed setting stupidly low benchmarks of not being in the bottom 3 as more illogical and indeed hopeful in the face of evidence rather than making a judgement at the here and now. No one has said that we are in the bottom 3, if we was, like I said the calls for Mowbray's head would be unanimous, and its a desperate argument to throw that line in as if it in anyway dismisses the argument some have that Mowbray has taken us as far as he can go. I dont believe in giving specific time frames, managers can be judged mid season as well as at the end of a season. The full squad argument again is not one I can get on board with, simply because EVERY team is suffering from injuries more than ever this season, and I would be amazed if we go into ANY game this season with a fully fit squad, it is an unreasonable expectation and waiting for such an eventuality is unrealistic. When Dack and Travis return, a couple of others will likely be injured, it is just par for the course this season. We played Bristol City last week and lost, they were missing 8 players basically all of whom were first team guaranteed starters. We are about to play 2 teams this month who have just lost their main attacking players. It is a squad game more than ever this year and it is our squad that many have been bigging up this season, the various options and of course the time and resources Mowbray has had to build a whole squad of players of his choosing. Regarding who I would replace Mowbray with, I dont know. I am of the opinion that the manager is critical and certainly wouldnt cut corners financially, so if it meant taking that money from future transfer budgets then so be it. Off the top of my head, someone like Eddie Howe would be a signal of intent but as I said, I cant profess to make a judgement in the same way that I feel 100% in a position to make a judgement on the future of the current manager.

To be fair, its been the case for a while now in which we have been x points, a run of wins, a fully fit squad, a bit of luck, there is always something between us and the top 6 and that something never goes away. The last sentence is a bit confusing. First you acknowledge a discrepancy in the results which is the basis of the reasoning behind those that suggest a change in manager. You then contradict yourself by claiming that we look better than previous seasons when those aforementioned results suggest otherwise. Merely "competing ok" is not justification for a manager to keep his job indefinitely. If Mowbray was to be sacked, it would quite obviously not be a cut and dry case like with Kean/Coyle etc where he is miles out of his depth, hence why people are so split on the issue. It would be because it was deemed that we are not (or at least unlikely to) take that next step and become serious top 6 contenders as we have strived to be since the start of last season. Last season, when we made our signings, the rhetoric was a top 6 challenge, we never came close, the players publically said that they fell short, but a line was drawn under the season. Maybe it was always a bit of a stretch. This season however, we are equally far away, our record is basically identical to last season. (and the year before) How long does this go on before those forlorn hopes of a late surge up the table to get into the top 6 having never done so before become unrealistic? If he was to be sacked, he could be proud of the job that he had done even in spite of being unable to take us on that next step. Your last sentence is a desperate, strawman argument. Is your stance on the matter as long as we arent in the bottom 3, he can keep his job? Is that the only time any manager should be sacked?

Its totally unreasonable to expect people to withhold judgement until the end of the season though. This is Mowbray's fourth full season, we are not at a point when we cannot flag up if we feel like we are stagnating, we arent improving, that we maybe could consider a change. "Give him until the end of the season" is such a rigid barometer, what if he was to lose the next 6, the next 10 for example? Surely that rule even to the most patient of supporters has a breaking point. This idea that we will put a run together to not only accumulate points at a rate that gets us into the top 6 but also enough to overcome not only a points deficit but also numerous teams in a similar situation is just incredibly fanciful based on anything seen to date. Villa are a flawed example to use in that they required not only the huge signing of Tyrone Mings in January to help them but crucially, they when stagnating changed manager from Steve Bruce to Dean Smith in October who was the catalyst in their surge up the table.

2 of our December opponents have had serious injury blows in the last week, Koroma at Huddersfield is out for 3 months and Tyrese Campbell is out for the season for Stoke.

I dont like the idea of Damien Johnson taking over when Mowbray does go. A rookie from within to take over from a long lasting manager when it is finally decided that things have gotten a little too stagnant doesnt seem particularly logical to me.

To be fair, the main reason that the defence is repeatedly criticised is that it has been the primary source of our failings/losses since we came up. Our attack has the 2nd most goals in the league, our defensive record is the 15th best. You mention the cover thing which is a fair point. Considering that the squad of players this season is seemingly the best one that Mowbray has had, yet we are achieving identical results with it whilst playing expansive football, maybe that suggests that the current style doesnt totally suit the players we have or that it exposes our weaknesses?

I do wonder what changes we could make without severely impacting the team. Armstrong and Elliott certainly cant be dropped, Gallagher isnt convincing but would Dolan or Chapman really improve us? Neither Rothwell nor Holtby has nailed down a place, maybe bring in Downing for probably Holtby but the likes of Buckley and Davenport wont improve us. Trybull may be a consideration but Johnson has been our best midfielder this season, 100%. Douglas would perhaps warrant dropping but I wouldnt want to see Bell come back in, we know he isnt good enough. Kaminski Nyambe Lenihan Ayala Douglas Johnson Downing Rothwell Elliott Armstrong Gallagher

It is really bizarre how contrasting peoples opinions are at the moment to the question of whether we are progressing under Mowbray, it seems almost a 50/50 split between those looking at the league table, the points gained and cannot see progression, or those that are adamant that we are progressing in spite of those results. Even this morning, Rich Sharpe and Mike Delap (with plenty more in agreement underneath) tweeted the below, there is a certain insistence by many that we are progressing as if results are an irrelevant by product of performances. Mikey Delap - "Anyone who has watched this Rovers side this season should be able to spot an improvement on what’s being offered up." I dont think there is many who would argue that the team this season is better, Kaminski for one is a huge upgrade in goal and Harvey Elliott is a vast improvement (much better yesterday back in his natural position may I add) on anything we have had out wide before under Mowbray. Brereton has really come on this season and is offering something he simply did not offer in his first 2 seasons. Them 3 alone are big improvements, that is before you can argue the toss on perhaps more subjective matters, have Ayala/Trybull/Douglas/Dolan improved us, are the likes of Johnson, (for me a definite yes) Holtby, Rothwell, Gallagher etc now offering more due to a full pre season, the new system etc? I dont get how considering that we have better players, that the fact that we do have said better players justifies us making progress, surely logic means that if we have better players yet are achieving almost identical results, that is regression rather than progression? Maybe people feel that if we accumulate almost identical results and still finish mid table but do it in a commonly accepted much more aesthetically pleasing way, people consider that in itself to be progress? Something that compounds the issue for me is that we are uncompetitive against the better teams, although again, because we appear competitive and play some pretty football in those games, even though we always come out on the wrong side of the result, again maybe some feel that we are competitive? Mowbray was very flippant, the usual guff basically about anyone beating anyone, but it obviously isnt a coincedence.

When you start believing that deflections go against us more often than not, it is clutching at straws, such an observation is totally baseless and nothing to do with hard luck across the course of a season. Against both Millwall and Brentford, we benefitted hugely from late deflected goals, within the last 4 games.

Those who believe that it is a time for a manager can very easily be painted as a blood thirsty mob desperate for instant success based on unrealistic expectations. Implying that those who want the manager out also wanted Big Sam out is a lazy assumption again aimed at making those who want a change are impatient, irrational and too demanding against all logic. The fact of the matter is, opinions about the playing style put to one side, despite having more time than any manager (bar Wycombe's) in the league, despite attempting to play a new style to dominate (a change which whilst most agree that it is more entertaining is no more productive) and despite signing numerous players and spending money, a few of which (Kaminski and Elliott in particular this season) are huge upgrades on what we had before. In regards to points tallies and results compared to previous years, we havent improved. We also havent even popped our head into the play offs even for a day/week/couple of hours since the third match, the top 6 is the target but we cant yet realistically be even deemed serious contenders. It is fair to acknowledge that there would be a small risk should the manager be changed. Mowbray could not be accused of being a terrible manager or doing a terrible job of which no one could do worse. But considering the potential reward of promotion against what would take a Coyle esque appointment AND a fire sale I would suspect to create any danger of relegation, advocating a change 4 years into a managerial reign is not being impatient. The idea that half the squad would revolt and leave because Mowbray went is very much clutching at straws.

Totally agree that we need to stop defending goals but nothing about Bell's Rovers career suggests that he is a player to facilitate that.

You are basing your analysis on opinions, on subjective matters, on style, on aesthetics. The points tally does not bear out the improvement you mention in spite of some obvious upgrades in personnel.

Why would you expect a Rovers forum to be anything else after a loss in a week in which we have picked up 1 point from 3 games? Its not unwarranted misery, its supporters being understandably frustrated and saddened to see their team lose. The perfect benchmark amidst all of the rhetoric about relegated clubs, inferior resources, comparatively numerous injury woes, all excuses that carry varying levels of truth, is our performance against the last 2 seasons. For all the spiel about progress regarding subjective styles and tactics, in terms of results we havent improved at this stage on the last 2 years.

The thing about the League 1 season and the performances is that as you touched on, they weren't what is seemingly seen as attractive on the eye, the football was direct, but we kept winning, and everyone loved it because we went into games expecting to win. I bet those fawning over the style now despite its inability to improve results weren't criticising the style in League 1. I am not saying that we should revert to playing direct now, the style to me is almost irrelevant, its an end to a means. But there is a level of hypocrisy you could argue in some of the defence of the current "progress" people perceive to be seeing at the moment.

The thing is, because we hover between "one win from the play offs" (which never happens) and deep into mid table mediocrity, my opinion can waver and I will admit that, but I think asking me now that Mowbray's shelf life as manager as passed, I think we should look for a change and that Mowbray will never smash the glass ceiling and make us a top 6 team. There will always be inconsistency and there will always be an inferiority complex under him I fear. The variances in style and formation have objectively not caused an improvement in results, even factoring in additions to the team like Kaminski and Elliott who are massive upgrades on what we had last year, we are mid table as we were at the same stage in each of the last 2 seasons with frighteningly identical points tallies. I feel that those expecting a sudden winning run to materialise are doing so in blind faith rather than using logic having been either wowed by a different style that as I mentioned has not improved results and/or have been suckered in by Mowbray and his constant string of hard luck stories and excuses.

Fair enough. Results and improvement in league position can be an afterthought to pretty sideways passing.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18940547.mowbrays-verdict-rovers-defeat-leaders-norwich-city/ The usual rhetoric from Mowbray after a defeat. He was talking about "trusting the numbers" in the LT this morning, now its saying how he doesnt think we are far away. Thrown in the League 1 card for good measure. Suspect that he wont be questioned on being in the exact same position as in the previous 2 seasons.

Thats the key and the truth you cannot escape, 100%. Another thing, Mowbray has had as much time as anyone in the division (bar maybe Ainsworth at Wycombe) hence why 4 years in taking positives in certain aspects of performance from defeats when failing to challenge the targets set by the manager this season is acceptable. Had he been in the managers chair for a short period of time then maybe.

Bell is shit, hes proven so across his Rovers career. The left back position seems to have been an afterthought in the last 2 windows, two temporary and injury prone loanees brought in on the final day. Depends what you define as better football, and if you are wowed by possession stats and merely creating more chances. My definition of better football would be getting better results, and it is clear as day that we are not doing so, even with a few improvements (Kaminski, Elliott etc) we are getting basically the exact same number of points and continue in mid table mediocrity. I wont be getting too excited over this "attractive football" while we continue to repeatedly lose to anyone half decent and fail to push on to challenge the top 6. Opposition managers who have played Rovers and beat us and then praise us post match is not what I ever want to hear.

Quite a few managers have said similar this year and it is exactly what we do not want to hear. Managers smug after a win giving us credit while we sit here with no points. We want opposition managers to hate playing v us, not loving us being a soft touch.

Douglas has been a big disappointment, but I suspect that Bell is benefiting from not being in the team and people forgetting how bad he is aswell.

Same old story today, played v a big side, the usual platitudes, we apparently "deserved more," we "played our part" and we "were unlucky." Its not a coincidence that we keep coming out on the wrong side every time we play anyone half decent. Some people may be sucked in to the hard luck, woe is me narrative offered by many, blame injuries, blame referees, blame fine margins as if they will spin in our favour, blame deflections, blame rotten luck. Others will be wowed by the different style of play to the point that they refuse to accept (at times in patronising fashion) to accept that we are in the same place as we have been in the past. @superniko showed us the facts, we havent improved. 24, 26 and 25 points at this stage of the season, improvement my arse. Tangible and intangible improvements have been made this season. Kaminski is an obvious upgrade on Walton and Elliott is a brilliant talent who has made a massive impact. Ayala seemed a shrewd addition as did Douglas to our leaky defence. And intagible ones too, Armstrong only started scoring so regularly half way through last season, Brereton seemed to turn into a different player, the likes of Johnson, Holtby and Rothwell were apparently going to be "new players." It is the case with Mowbray that in the Championship, no matter how improved the ingredients are, the end product always results in mid table mediocrity. On todays performance, Holtby and Rothwell are the perfect summary of 2020/21 Rovers, ineffective more often than not with fleeting glimpses. Johnson was very good and for me has started to display some consistency and out of the 3 is the one that now can be least accused of flattering to deceive, he would be the one to maintain his place over the other 2 when Travis and Dack return. Elliott was absolutely excellent, Gallagher and Armstrong very quiet, we are so reliant on the latter. Defensively, we always return to the comfort blanket that is Derrick Williams, a defender who has proven not to be of the level we need. Douglas put in some good balls but was all over the place yet we have to persist because the alternative is terrible. Kaminski aside from some wayward kicking kept the score down and Nyambe was good. The subs were very much made for the sake of it I think, Downing got involved, the other 2 looked out of their depth.